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Cheri
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/11/2007 : 7:22:02 PM
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Loki, When did you dis-associate yourself from AANR? IF it's more than a year ago, you may not be aware of some of the changes. It now has member-voted trustees, members get to actually vote for those who run the organization. I have worked with AANR (formerly ASA), TNS/NAC since 1987. Both are good organizations; TNS is better with Nicky at the helm.
You can't change things from the outside. Only working from within can any organization grow and change. That's one of the reasons I have stuck with both of them for these years.
Cheri
Doing what I can to positively promote nudism
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Country: USA
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Nightforce
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/15/2007 : 10:50:10 PM
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It's great that AANR does clean-ups etc, but I think AANR should be pushing the issues more and figthing for the right to be nude in public rather than only pushing for laws concerning the AANR. Kinda looks like to me they might have been trying to sneak one under the radar by exempting AANR clubs, i.e. pass a law exempting AANR affiliated clubs then any nudist club only has to join AANR to be exempt thereby increasing the enrollment numbers. Maybe an uphill snowball that would have worked, however, with the current view of nudity I think AANR needs to focus more on the big picture. I was hoping my first year dues would go to helping the cause and I'm a bit disapointed so far. It also appears they need a new speaker or representative. I am by no means a good public speaker but with all those um's, uh's, and verbal stumbling it's hard to make a decent point IMHO.
Chance favors the prepared mind. - Louis Pasteur
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Country: USA
| Posts: 17 |
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Loki
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/28/2007 : 5:02:08 PM
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Yes, Cheri, much more than a year ago. Do you really think the changes in AANR structure are anything more than pro forma?
If so, do you seriously see any tactics that could deal with the past issues of internal dirty politics in leadership, or change AANR to switch from condoning to condemning discriminatory gate policies of resorts which are closer to public accommodations than honestly private (despite the contrast between 1976 Y*CA and more recent BSA precedents)? Do you see AANR changing to be a proponent of nudism or naturism as civil rights and lifestyles in open society, rather than commercial interests which rely on oppressive laws to coerce customers to gated "leper colonies" relative to the larger legal and social models?
As to TNS leadership, I can see how someone with an organizational management focus can be a strong asset, but IMHO Lee as more of a champion focused on the ethical and ideological issues was a far better style of top tier leader than Nicky. Naturism is an ethical and ideological movement, and to lose that focus loses a major reason for TNS to exist. It's easier to hire or contract people with organizational management skills, albeit that carries further challenges when ideologies clash as to keeping religious and subcultural movements non-commercial and as disconnected from business planning and budgets as possible, versus organization capabilities and infrastructure being very difficult to develop in Western societies without a financial base. Nicky has presented herself as certainly a dedicated naturist, but views avoidance of issues which might upset precarious standoffs at places like Mazo as more important than developing or fronting tactics to advance civil rights on which safe and open naturism, out of the closet and into the street, ultimately rely. As part of the class of naturists for whom overturn of all mala prohibita is overdue for protection of core civil rights, wherein naturism is part of my core religion, I find Lee's positions respectable (albeit we had some interesting strolls discussing details where we strongly disagreed), and Nicky's to be hostile toward many needed supports for naturist rights.
I'm skeptical that a comment from an often two-faced Canadian webmistress may have been all too accurate about what it really takes to change AANR, about a decade ago. She'd never say it to the faces of her drinking buddies, but looking the other way suggested that serious changes to AANR and its relation to gated colonies would require enough years for a generation of nudists to die off. In that sense, Lee had been an example of how a benevolent dictator can be a more functional or ethical leader than a tyrannical democracy. The "die off" delay carries a risk of other changes larger society culture clashes have experienced simply driving away younger generations completely, for both ideological and recreational factions.
I've now reached the age where it's a lot more draining than in my 20's or 30's to do regular treks to a remote nude beach. While I was a casual naturist in my teens, I'm reminded that the friend who got me seriously involved in the free beach movement is now almost 70 (without whose influence I'd have likely not formally joined organizations he never did, nor filed formal Rulemaking comments up and down the Eastern US), while more of my friends have mobility issues that really can only be addressed by legal precedents to social changes to protect our rights in daily life. Living in the woods where I now am, it's safe to have a skyclad retreat for a bunch of people, but remote enough from most that doing so just isn't practical regularly. It's simply wrong to tolerate the kind of oppression which trade groups do, as opposed to resorts existing on their own merits as services to those who might choose to associate at easier places to reach than sand dunes (albeit ocean energies remain important for other reasons). Is AANR really showing potential in what you see to become an honest advocate of core civil rights, even if it dances around the issues that require undoing some defective and malicious Supreme Court defects whereby "nudity" and "sex" rights are one and the same as to underlying law and religious fact, but different only as to active or passive conduct? TNS and NAC leaders have enough trouble with those issues, even if some privately understand them better than most nudists as to the complex mix of law and society.
As to support for organizations, there are enough important causes that we all have to make choices. You'd find I've worked in the trenches with NAC on some cases when practical. I was a state chapter delegate to last Fall's ACLU conference in DC (and got to look into Scalia's eyes to form a far harsher opinion about just how dangerous a psychotic he is, in a position of power, balanced against working with many good activists there). I've done Board-equivalent stints in unincorporated association pagan rights national leadership. I have an associate relationship with FSC, the adult industry trade group which tackles some issues nudists refuse to touch, never mind with enough funding to maintain high profile continuous DC lobbyists, despite the need for nudist and naturist organizations to form working coalitions to address overlapping legal rights issues. (Remember, it's the porn industry which decriminalized mailing AANR and TNS publications, even if it would go bankrupt if the average person bought as little of their wares as I do.) I also recall the one AANR SCOTUS Amicus to date being an embarrassment which promoted civil rights violations, just shaped slightly differently than the RRR positions advocated, rather than simply demanding an end to unConstitutional laws, period.
I'll also take issue with the notion that it requires being inside any given organization to effect change. A "shaping the middle" political action strategy requires all of dissidents who depict legal boundaries law is obligated to honor but which are seen as strange by many, "diplomats" seen as centrists, and social advisors who help masses of functionally illiterate citizens deal with shifted lifestyles when civil rights are enforced (or, sadly, sometimes badly violated). There are cases where I've assumed one or the other of those sort of good cop, bad cop roles to "help" and "threaten" local political leaders, working by overt arrangement with others in NAC, or as part of de facto arm's length synergies. That process often doesn't require everyone on the same side to be in the same team, and it sometimes works better if the diplomats are seen as if the enemies of the boundary depiction dissidents, as if to narrow the visible spectrum and try to get more people seeing RRR factions as merely wackos. There are also some strong examples of gay rights or feminist extremist groups, which work effectively with more centrist ACLU task forces, and where the mass of the ACLU and funding behind it carry a lot or weight which organizations incapable of fronting a single case from preliminaries through SCOTUS do not.
That's a massive and complex enough set of issues that I'd challenge anyone who claimed any one approach or organization could possibly deal with it. As to AANR's role, what do you see as likely, and possible, looking ahead one or ten years?
"Not all the Greek runners in the original Olympics were totally naked. Some wore shoes." Mark Twain
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Country: USA
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rangerjames73
Forum Member
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Posted - 12/16/2007 : 6:30:12 PM
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I don't think AANR or it's affiliaes should be able to monopolize nudity nor should thy be able to keep the singles out. The way I figure it if you let more singles in then the more chances that they become nudist couples, and nudist couple give birth to nudist children, and then the nudist population grows. So I don't see any benifit for keeping nudism to themselves. You don't go buying a car without driving it first, so why keep a person or a group of people from doing the same. Try it out see if you like it then buy the membership, T-shirts, and suvineers. Maybe it's just me, but if I were to run an organization I would make it more inviting.
As times change time will change
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Country: USA
| Posts: 11 |
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melissastarr
Forum Member
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 Posted - 12/16/2007 : 7:29:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rangerjames73
I don't think AANR or it's affiliaes should be able to monopolize nudity nor should thy be able to keep the singles out.
OK, I can see from previous posts where the idea of AANR monopolizing the nudism industry comes from.... but where does the idea that AANR keeps singles out come from? I've never heard of AANR doing such a thing. Or am I just ignorant of this? I know many singles, mostly male and some female, who have AANR memberships with no problem. As a former nonlanded club owner I've put through many applications from single males applying for AANR membership and there's never been a problem.
As for AANR monopolizing the nudism industry, I honestly haven't seen anyone else stepping up to the plate to try to join them other than TNS. TNS and AANR often work together, from what I've seen, and at other times they have different focuses. The one thing I will say in this regard is that I've seen many clubs that require AANR membership but won't honor TNS membership while I've never seen a club who will honor only TNS memberships. I think this needs to be changed- we should have a choice of one or the other or both. (Personally, I like N Magazine and would rather have TNS membership, but that's just me.... I keep AANR membership so that I can get in to resorts near me, etc.)
I like AANR, I'm reapplying for my AANR membership tomorrow (it lapsed and I've got to print out the paperwork when I get ink tomorrow), and I'm a proud card-carrying member. I won't let some stupid little things that bother me, like AANR being an imperfect organization like every other organization out there, keep me from supporting an organization that has fought for me to have the many rights that I have.
Melissa
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"Be who you are and say how you feel because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter" -Dr. Seuss
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Country: USA
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spadoc
Forum Member
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Posted - 12/17/2007 : 12:35:56 AM
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I have spoken to the issue of singles discrimination on other forums and in the Bulletin. When I was on the Board of AANR East, I was the Chairman of the Singles Committee, and as a single male nudist, I was concerned to hear about this discriminatory practice. After extensive research, here is what I found. There are two types of landed clubs in the US, member owned, and privately owned. The member owned clubs are run by a Board that meets at least once a year. They and they alone determine the gate policy as it exists for visitors. The manager, who is a hired employee, has no control over those policies determined by the Board. He/she is just an employee. Then we have the privately owned clubs. Folks, I hate to break the news to you and ruin your misconceptions about the "singles problem", but with the exeption of 5 or 6 privately owned clubs in the US (out of more than 200++) EACH and every one of these clubs welcomes single visitors (and their money). Even in the case of clubs that do not have an open door policy vis a vis singles, there are alternative choices close by. For example, Pine Tree is a Co op club in Maryland with a very restrictive singles policy (the members who own Pine Tree like it that way), but MAHESO is a very nice, friendly club less than 7 miles away. I don't know how or why this question won't die a natural and well deserved death. I had asked for anyone who had been turned away from a club to e mail me, and after a year, I had two circumstances, both of which were of the variety of "well, I heard from an acquaintance, who had a friend, and his second cousin married this guy who had a friend who was turned away from a club." Folks, there is simply NO ongoing singles problem out there. Not based solely on the fact that someone is single. And by single, I mean NOT MARRIED. Lastly, AANR has no control over the gate policies of any club, so to castigate them for not responding to a non existent problem is......well.....silly.
Walt Iliff
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Country: USA
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melissastarr
Forum Member
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Posted - 12/17/2007 : 12:56:19 AM
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Thanks for your input, Walt (great to see you again, too, ol' buddy- it's been too long. I hear your A-A=NR song do the YMCA lyrics in my head now and again LOL.) I didn't think I was completely in the dark on this one, but thought maybe I was missing something since I didn't read the aforementioned article. I suppose the one thing that COULD possible happen is a nonlanded club could set a gender quota, which would potentially keep out single males for a time. I dunno, this is all I can think of. At PhiNu we tried to achieve a certain gender balance but never had a problem meeting it so never turned anyone away. We had plenty of couples and a splattering of single females who came to events, so maybe that was the difference. Who knows? But as you say, let's not castigate (great word!!!!!) for a nonexistant problem.
Melissa
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"Be who you are and say how you feel because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter" -Dr. Seuss
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Country: USA
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dave_il
New Member
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Posted - 02/14/2009 : 9:42:48 PM
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The transcripts only show a degree of ignorance among the legislators. The question is what exactly does this piece of legislation entail? The AANR is a recognized organization. Did they actually support the bill or were just able get an ammendment indemnifying themselves and their members?
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Country: USA
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Admin
Forum Admin
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Posted - 02/15/2009 : 11:34:39 AM
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The effect of this proposed amendment to the Maryland Constitution was meant to be that AANR would be declared the only organization that by law could offer a nude vacation experience to nudists in the state of Maryland.
Any other organization such as ours (SUN) or The Naturist Society, or even a nude bed and breakfast would face serving 6 months in prison and an enhanced $500 fine for thinking they could be nudists without AANR dues being paid.
From reading the transcript you can see those legislators had no idea what "nude recreation" entailed, nor what AANR represented that the other organizations did not. All they were apparently told in those closed office meetings was that an AANR exemption from prosecution would solve all their problems with nude dance clubs, the intended target of the legislation.
With just two more votes, this exemption based legislation would have become state law.
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Country: USA
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2009 : 4:20:39 PM
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AANR's apparent push toward being the only recognized nudist organization in Maryland seems a bit like a certain car company demanding to be the only car sold in Maryland.
As a bit of an outsider to the goings-on in the politics of nudism, I would still venture to say that competition has always been good for the average person. Why not allow all bonafide nudist organizations access to Maryland?
Monopolies are not desirable, and should be avoided.
An organization ceases to serve their patrons when it becomes more concerned about gathering power unto itself than it is about promoting that which it represents.
"'Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world."
George Washington
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Edited by - Warmskin on 02/15/2009 4:31:17 PM |
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Country: USA
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homenude
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2009 : 4:42:01 PM
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Can you give me a link to the proposal? I am skeptical that it would pass constitutional muster, if the summary given here is correct and accurate.
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Country: USA
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Admin
Forum Admin
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Posted - 02/15/2009 : 7:14:28 PM
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Fortunately, the senators had read the language in question into the record during discussion, or we would have no record at all of the proposed legislation. And if we hadn't bothered to transcribe the entire session, no one would know what had almost become law in Maryland.
We found it suspicious that AANR bragged in meetings about their working with some senators, but failed to provide the link to the actual online session. So, with some difficulty, we found the actual link on the Maryland official website, and transcribed every word as accurately as possible.
The exemption language read, "an ordinance adopted under this section may not apply to any event charted by the American Association for Nude Recreation."
So apparently when AANR came to the rescue of all nudists, they had decided if you weren't an AANR member, you were not a nudist. If your business in Maryland provided any nude experience for people without AANR's blessing, you were a fitting target of the new law, and should face six months prison time and hefty fines along with all the people running strip clubs.
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Country: USA
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homenude
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2009 : 7:31:13 PM
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If the provision passed, it could be challenged in court on the basis of denying members of other organizations equal protection of the law as well as being an unlawful delegation of regulatory powers to a non-governmental body without due process rights of appeal.
The idea was good, but the implementation was bad.
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Country: USA
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2009 : 9:52:11 PM
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It smacks of facism when a corporation and the government govern as one entity, as it were. It seems highly unconstitutional that not all contracts are being honored. States cannot impair contracts, and if I belong to another nudist organization, than Maryland would move to impair my right to contract by putting me in jail for upholding my own contract with an alternative nudist group.
It goes back to an earlier message wherein I stated this is tantamount to having only one kind of car sold in Maryland. Let's say that lucky car manufacturer is Ford. So, if I contract to buy a Chevrolet in Maryland, I can go to jail.
Disgusting stuff. That is quite un-American.
"'Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world."
George Washington
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Country: USA
| Posts: 1964 |
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Teva
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/16/2009 : 10:42:53 AM
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Then why does AANR & its region support and spend $ at the annual Assateague Beach Cleanup on the MD side?!! When bills were in several states that were anti-nudism these past few years, AANR said they did not want to have any organization mentioned.
Teva
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AANR leaves non-paying nudists out in the cold
