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asmodee
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 10:59:06 AM
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Once again, I find this topic very scary, having small children. First I would like to say that there is nothing wrong with the swinger lifestyle. I supposed that's the kind of thing you'd be into, if you were into that kind of thing. But I am looking into trying nudism with my FAMILY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a nudist have to worry about themselves, their spouses or their children being propositioned just because they choose to live the NUDIST lifestyle. I may have an idealist view of what nudism is, but in my mind, THE TWO ARE NOT COMPATIBLE! You simply CANNOT throw nudists and swingers in the same place at the same time. That's like locking the wolves in the sheep pen.
Maybe I'm just being a newbie to nudism and have impossible ideals here, but the solution, in my mind, is very simple. If you are a swinger interested in swinging activities, go to swinger functions, not nudist functions! It's just that damned simple. If a man doesn't have a wife or girlfriend to take care of his needs, there are acceptable ways to go find someone. Going to a random hotel and sexually propositioning its other guests is NOT one of those acceptable methods. Likewise, I believe that going to a nudist resort and sexually propositioning that resorts guests is not one of those acceptable methods.
The bottom line, "nudist" as I see it is simply NOT compatible with "swinger" or "adults only". If any of this is acceptable to the general nudist, I am looking into the wrong lifestyle. The way I understood nudism was that it was completely NON-sexual. No swingers propositioning your 16 year old daughter, no "adults only" events and no sex dance. I understood nudism to be something so innocent that you COULD share it with your kids, not something you had to shield your kids from. From what I've heard about nudism, I am simply astounded that the average resort would not ask people like this to leave the moment they began displaying overtly sexual behavior.
I think one person mentioned being both a nudist and a swinger, which would also not be a problem, so long as you remember which resort you're at at any given time. There is nothing wrong with the swinger lifestyle, so long as you are with 'like minded people' when you practice the swinger lifestyle. I can see where someone could be both, though as both nudists and swingers are far from the norm, I would imagine that it would be difficult to find many who were truly both. But here's the deal; 15 years ago at the end of next month, I promised a woman that it would be her and only her so long as we dated. 10 years ago at the end of next month I made it a lifelong contract and I do not believe in an escape clause. I AM NOT a 'like minded person', nor is my wife. My children certainly have no interest in sex dances or swinging. If I book a 'nudist' vacation, I want to meet...can anyone guess here?...NUDISTS!
It's all very simple. Hijack the term 'lifestylers' if you want. Take 'like minded'. It's yours. But you can't have 'nudist'! Nudists and swingers go to functions for such fundamentally different reasons, why would a nudist go to a nudist function and find swingers on the prowl? I'll tell you why.
1) Swingers are hijacking the nudist function. It sounds like most of these resorts that are 'swinger friendly' have mostly male members. They are there because there are naked women there. Maybe they can't touch the women, but there are some things they can do. In one thread it was mentioned that a man stared at a woman from the time she got there until the time she left. That was a low grade form of rape! His penis may not have been involved, but he got what he wanted. He made her feel uncomfortable. He exerted a form of control over her. He got to watch her squirm...scratch that, he got to MAKE her squirm. There was no sex, but there was a rape, nonetheless. Most rapists are not in it for the sex. They're in it for the control.
2) The establishm
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 5:20:12 PM
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Yikes. I thought I might stir up some discussion when I started this thread, but now I feel like someone attempting to drink from a fire hydrant.
Assuming he is sincere, Asmodee is indeed an idealist, with an idealist's anger. His notion of "a law saying that anything advertised as 'nudist' cannot have any form of sexual undertones" would strike most (non-nudist) legislators as ludicrous and unenforceable. To me, it speaks of a prudishness that, paradoxically, exceeds that of the textile community.
I share some of his concerns, if not his vehemence. I wouldn't care, for instance, to have my family exposed to couples rutting in the hot tub at a resort. But I think that such behavior at family-oriented and even most adults-only nudist/naturist resorts is far and away the exception rather than the rule; his concerns seem rather disproportionate. And if he truly wishes to believe that social nudity can ever exist completely free of 'sexual undertones', all I can say is, "Good luck."
Still, Asmodee makes some good points. There doesn't necessarily need to be an anti-swinger jihad in the nudist/naturist community, but a sense of heightened awareness or vigilance might be in order. Resorts should be required to enforce their published policies regarding sexual activity, and swinger venues should just tell it like it is. Perhaps then the two communtities could co-exist.
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allnaturalwife
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Posted - 01/22/2007 : 2:07:57 PM
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NDoc..I agree especially with your last statement. Resorts SHOULD just tell it like it is. NO more of these "implied tones of a sexual component". If you are a swinger resort..Just say you are. Right there in the brochure. Say that sex IS allowed in public areas. Say that the night life is geared towards swingers. We have our own family travel agent that we have used for years. She is BOTH a swinger and a nudist and has been to EVERY single resort and on EVERY cruise. When we are planning a vacation we dont beat around the bush with her. We ask her specific questions regariding what type of people and what type of sexual element there will be at a given resort. We as her honestly " will there be people having sex in the spa?" Will there be people having sex at night in the dance club? What age range people go there?( and in reference to that we get an honest anwser..NOT the standard, we have all age ranges..because that is flat out not true. Every resort and cruise has specific age ranges that make up the majority) These are questiones that they dont answer on the front page of most of the travel companies or even by phone. The operator at a major travel company will never tell you that such and such resort..is a flat out "group orgy"........Or at resort X the median age range is over 60. I think all resorts and cruises should be open about these issues. Why do they want nudists there that are not the right fit for them anyway? Because there are many types of nudists and many types of swingers, it would make it a LOT easier for us as the consumer to find the right vacation for us, without having to decipher what a place is REALLY going to be like.
Jenn
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NaturistDoc
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 Posted - 01/22/2007 : 4:56:16 PM
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Another sign of the Apocalypse ... this time from the delightfully named Club Fantastico, a C/O resort just up the hill from Orient Beach:
LIFESTYLE WEEK:
We here at the Club have had many inquiries about whether or not we are a "lifestyle" resort. Up until now we have been consistently saying, "no, we are just clothing optional". However, not wanting to turn away possible new guests, we have come up with a solution that will not offend our regular clientele. Club Fantastico is now announcing that March 4-11, 2007 has been set adside for those seeking a more open party atmosphere. We need to have your interests and reservations by February 7th.
Well, at least they're honest.
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allnaturalwife
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Posted - 01/22/2007 : 6:31:28 PM
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True at least they are honest. I/we have never heard of this resort before. We have thought about taking the family to Orient Beach. As there you have many hotel choices and private rental accomodations. But nothing finalized yet. Out oldest is considering a "nude wedding" to her fiance, somewhere in the Caribbean. But the logistics are vrey expensive and difficult. Its possible we might rent a few private accomodations for the event on some private beach. Then we could just do what we wanted. But again the wedding and planning are in the preliminary stages at this point. Another idea we had is to have our daughters wedding on a private boat charter. I have seen many adds where you can charter boats out od Fl for nude sailing. But Im sure thats also VERY expensive.
Jennifer
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StuffedTiger
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Posted - 01/22/2007 : 8:20:40 PM
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It rains on wedding days, even in California, let alone the tropical Caribbean. I'd select a resort with indoor facilities just in case. People usually come a long way no matter where the wedding is, and have a limited time and budget. The food and band are booked. It's not one of those things that can be postponed until a sunny day.
Are there not plenty of great nudist resorts in California? With the bride's emphasis on her guests comfort and pocketbook, and an understanding that some of the best marriages had everything go wrong and still had a great time on that day, you might want to give them a budget to spend on the house or a wedding and let them figure it out. Either way, I hope you all have a blast, and best of luck.
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Cheri
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:56:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by allnaturalwife
True at least they are honest. I/we have never heard of this resort before. We have thought about taking the family to Orient Beach. As there you have many hotel choices and private rental accomodations. But nothing finalized yet. Out oldest is considering a "nude wedding" to her fiance, somewhere in the Caribbean. But the logistics are vrey expensive and difficult. Its possible we might rent a few private accomodations for the event on some private beach. Then we could just do what we wanted. But again the wedding and planning are in the preliminary stages at this point. Another idea we had is to have our daughters wedding on a private boat charter. I have seen many adds where you can charter boats out od Fl for nude sailing. But Im sure thats also VERY expensive.
Jennifer
Jennifer, We got married at Cypress Cove on their lake's beach. Maybe Laguna del Sol will let you use their lake as a background for the wedding.
I made all our arrangements including cake at a local place. I used poly-silk flowers for my bouquet.
Back on topic: Travel Agents tend to go the way their clients want. That's one reason, I'll investigate my destination and tell my agent to make the reservations for me.
:) Cheri
Doing what I can to positively promote nudism
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innocence protected
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 1:48:37 PM
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I'd like to respond to the concerns about swingers in a nudist area post.
I was new to the concept of naturalism. I was introduced by friends who I thought were very holistic.
Before understanding the real difference between swingers and nudists (my opinion is it has to do with power and the need for ego feeding) and (nudists enjoying nature free of clothes) - I felt wonderful about going to a nudist state park - Haulover.
Unfortunately, and costly ($7k in therapy), I fell in love with a man (Frank) who was not a "nudist". In fact, having had a life history of swinging - his predatorial ways were unleashed at Haulover.
I found him walking by and staring for over 15 minutes at a woman innocently sunbathing. He used his charm and good looks to ingratiate himself into warning me of the "dangers" of the beach and to be aware of some of these perverts - for me to find his picture and real name (Charles) online the FBI Sex Offender List. Not once - but twice had he run into legal issues - the charge was his exposing himself to children under 15.
Yes, I was naive and formerly "innocent". I thought I might have a relationship with this guy before I found out the true scoop and differences between naturalist vs swingers.
Having sex with him in the privacy of my home - then being forced to watch his lewd & lacivious behavior with another women in front of me on the beach right after - was definitely traumatizing.
Other traumas I found offensive at Haulover was having men jerk off while sitting near you and directly staring, having pictures taken without permission, items stolen.
Frankly, while I thought and actually enjoyed the innocence of nudism - what is at Haulover is dangerous and harmful to those not aware.
The swingers... do not care how they offend others. They like to seduce and convert those innocents on the beach.
Worse... the predators - they like to impose their power and yes... being stared at, or having a many jerk off while watching you - is rape.
I know personally my sense of safety and innocence on the beach was repeatedly disregarded. The lifeguards at Haulover did nothing. This is funded by tax dollars - and I agree - a nudist beach is fine - however, the innocents (children and adult innocent alike) should be protected from the predators - such as my friend "Frank" or "Charles" or whatever he calls himself to protect his identity - with the sole intent of covering his past.
I think that at the minimal - the rules should be enforced and that those with sexual offenses in their past should be kept away from these nude beaches.
I also think whitewashing the world of nudism is also not in the best interests of those who would truly like to keep something like a nude beach available for those who aren't there to intrude on other's feelings of safety and peace.
Just a thought. While live and let live is a predominant thought on that beach - I found it useful in disguising abusive practices.
Maybe the group would do well to come up with rules that keep sex offenders and those who cannot respect the rights of others - off the beaches. Sooner or later - this is going to cause a real problem and everyone may lose out on the enjoyment of these beaches.
Also - women should be very careful about who they meet on these beaches. They naturally attract predators for those who are basking in the innocence of a new found freedom.
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asmodee
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 2:29:56 PM
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Let me state, first, that I was sincere. Let me next state that I did not intend to imply that swingers were in any way less important or less human than nudists. A keen eye will note that I continually tried to tone it down a bit in my post, but in my mind I saw, not innocent swingers who are more than capable of being both nudist and swinger, but evil, slimy scum with unnatural sexual interests. I do not believe all swingers are like that. That image, however, was the one that had my blood boiling and kept turning my post toward the 'kill them all' attitude which dominated the post, not your everyday swinger who has manners, compassion for other people and knows right from wrong. I do not have anything against a well mannered person who happens to enjoy the swinging lifestyle and I apologize to those of you who might be because I know much of my post must have been offensive. Please know that it was not you who was on my mind when I was writing.
This was the second post I have read about such things. The first one startled and frightened me. It was much more graphic. This one set me off, obviously. My way of thinking is not like most, I realize. For me, divorce is not an option. I gave my word to my wife and, rain or shine, that is that, the end. I do not believe in abortion, though I do not think it is my right to force my views onto someone else in the matter. I do not believe in God but think it is the most horrible of crimes to convince another person that I am correct and their beliefs are wrong. I am, I suppose, an idealist. Although I do not see things as black and white, I generally see only one shade of gray. Something is either good, bad or solidly in the middle. I see sexually predatory behavior as very, very bad. That is what is happening in some of these resorts. I don't care if it's nothing more than staring at a woman and making her uncomfortable. I see it as a form of mental rape and it disgusts me that there is any place on Earth where this is acceptable. I have always envisioned nudists as kind of 'white knights', hair blowing in the wind. In my idealist and unrealistic views, nudist meant defender of a healthy, non-sexual nude lifestyle. You can imagine how my world was shattered when I found nudists to be victims of just the opposite of that.
First, nudists, as a whole, are good people. To victimize a good person alone is enough to get my blood boiling. Next, in all the stories I read, the nudist was helpless. They had been tricked into a resort where they had little choice but to stay, remain nude and take the oh-so-subtle mental abuse. So much for my white knight, and I'm on a rampage. Sorry about that.
I am calm now, but the fact remains I do think something should be done about it. Many of these nudists visiting these places by accident do not realize they are the victims of sexual abuse because they were never physically touched. To stare at a woman for half an hour until she is so uncomfortable she has to leave may not be physical rape, but the man's intentions of control are no less vulgar; his need to humiliate the woman is no less scary. Tell me, what do you think a man like that will do when he sees a pretty girl far from help instead of in a public hot tub? Do you think someone with that type of mental disorder is incapable of actual rape? I think if a man is disturbed enough to get his rocks off like that he is disturbed enough to do terrible, terrible things.
The fact of the matter is, nudists DO NOT have to take this. IT IS against the law in America. Not only that, someone intentionally leaving out 'little' details about the nature of any given establishment is responsible for the actions of his patrons both legally and financially. Nudists want the powers that be to see nudism as separate from sex, but that is a difficult thing if the resorts claiming to be 'nudist' do not separate nudism from sex. More importantly, people are being victimi
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allnaturalwife
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 5:04:28 PM
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The overwhelming majority of nudist clubs are not crawling with perverts..They just arent. You are just as likely to find innapropriate behaviour at a regular beach, park or the mall. If we all just let our imaginations run wild..we WOULD NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE. Im sure most other longtime nudists would agree with me here. I have been reading several experiences of some on here who have been propositioned or the like at a nudist venue. As a nudist of 46 years, trust me when I say...YOU are in the minority! Its just not that common. And if it does happen at a nudist resort or club, reprot it to the staff and they will take care of it. And lets be honest here..99% of the time its merely a comment or gesture..Ive never seen anyone get too damaged from mere words myself, so I just dont see the big deal. And the more "severe type stuff" is VERY few and far between. We have raised all three of our children{3 GIRLS none-the-less} immeresed in the nudist culture at clubs, and beaches. And it has only benefitted them in the young adults they have become. So to all parents wanting to take your children to a beach or club..just take them. We are all proftective parents here..but lets not be so protective, that our children might miss out on some great experiences.
Jennifer
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innocence protected
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 10:03:32 PM
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I hope and pray that your daughters never do meet one of the "regulars" who turns out to be a predator.
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asmodee
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Posted - 01/24/2007 : 1:47:47 PM
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I am sorry for the terrible experience you had. That is, indeed, the worst case scenario. I do not believe that happens the overwhelming majority of the time, nor did I ever. I do not think that all nudist beaches and resorts should be closed because a few evil people are 'hunting' there. I just think that people should stand up for their rights when they are violated by these predators. Did you turn this man in? Did you speak up? I know it is a lot harder thing to do than a question from a stranger makes it sound. I have seen the psychological torment that can make a person feel helpless even when they have all the power. But still, this is exactly the thing I am talking about, only the very worst of it. These people get their way. They scare off the good people and make them decide never to come back. There will always be more nudists to take their place. The one thing that can hurt them is attacking the pocket book or their very freedom.
And allnaturalwife is right about it not being constrained to nudist locations. I was watching 'beach patrol' the other day and the police stopped a man for staring (enough to make several parents nervous) at little girls. The officer said outright, "That's not illegal, but being intoxicated in public is." What people fail to realize is that it IS illegal under US sexual harassment laws. That is my point. People believe they are powerless, that there is nothing they can do, but it is simply not true.
innocence protected, I wish you the best. I hope you find the strength to overcome your terrible experience and to stop allowing it control over you. I learned a long time ago that, like it or not, we are in complete control of our own emotions. I know your experience is a hard one to overcome, but it is up to you and you alone to overcome it. Sex between two loving people can be a beautiful thing. Don't let a monster destroy your ability to be truly happy. Know that he no longer has power over you and that you alone are in control of your life and your destiny. Admittedly I don't know much about your situation, such as exactly what happened, how long you have had to come to terms, how old you are, but none of that really matters. It takes time to heal a wound, but it will never heal if you keep picking at it. Instead of trying to suppress your anger, use it. Draw power and strength from it. The person you were before this happened is obviously no more. It is up to you to decide who that person will be replaced by, whether the new you will be weak and feeble or strong and unstoppable. Other people only have mental power over you as long as you let them. You only have to decide who you want to be, then be that person. Once you understand that it is true, it is really just that simple. I wish you the best.
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NudeAl
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 12:21:14 PM
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I have been a practicing nudist for oh about 16 years now. In that time I have seen a few things. I have not done it all but I have been to a dozen or so nude resorts through the US and 20 or so nude beaches around the world and tons of back country hot springs in the remote landscapes of the western US. In that time I have encountered a small percent of inappropriate behavior.
Most of the time it is when a nude beach gets a reputation via word of mouth or the Internet and suddenly there is a surge in this kind of misconduct. The regular users of that beach need to be hyper-vigilant in order to curb this behavior. In fact most of the beaches that I have encountered this at seem to run in cycles. It seems to be very bad for a time then it's like everyone says okay that's enough and some sort of action is taken to stop the inappropriate behavior.
I have not encountered swingers at any nude resort. Now that is not to say they aren't there they just maintain a low enough profile that it isn't noticeable and I'm fine with that. I think certain resorts have learned to cultivate a certain clientele and if that is the case they should be honest about it and not beat around the bush and let the uninitiated not be caught unaware. However as in most things in life we need to live by the motto let the buyer be ware.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. -- Robert Frost
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pilot
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 7:03:09 PM
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There's a lot of emotion in this thread, as there should be. Undesired sexual advances, especially those made towards vulnerable populations--children, mentally disabled and so on, are unacceptable to nudists under any circumstance. My sense is that they are equally unacceptable to swingers. So why precisely is there so much emotion here?
For the record, we subscribe to social nudism/naturism in the AANR tradition, and we do not participate in 'swinging'.
I offer some assertions---whether they are facts are for you to decide--but I think these assertions are reasonable:
1. Americans are generally uncomfortable with nudity. From our attorney general who demanded that sculptures of "Lady Justice" be draped so her bare breasts would not be visible to movie ratings that escalate with incidental images of buttocks, breasts and genitalia, the preponderance of the evidence suggests that Americans find nudity disquieting. The regular news stories about nude (runners|hikers|bikers|bathers) attest to the newsworthiness of the condition.
2. Americans mentally link nudity with sex. There links are endorsed and reinforced in any number of ways, including the absence of nude images except in 'adult' media, e.g. Playboy, Penthouse, Playgirl magazines etc.
3. Nudists/naturists enjoy the (naked) company of others because it feels good and the shared state of undress seems to promote social interactions. Similarly, swingers seem to enjoy the (naked) company of others because it feels good and the state of undress seems to promote social interactions, albeit of the intimate variety.
From the standpoint of mainstream America, which finds both social nudism and swinging 'different" and perhaps even abhorrent (assertion '1') , the coexistence of the two positions described in assertion '3' sends a decidedly mixed message. And given assertion '2', it's hardly surprising that at least some of mainstream America believes that social nudists are simply swingers making false claims of purity.
So what to do?
The long-term goal might be an America in which nudity is seen as normal and by itself asexual. But that seems unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.
I can only agree with the other posters that truth and accuracy about the gatherings and events are essential--this is a strictly social gathering, that is a swinger cruise, and so on.
It seems to me that both camps--organized naturism and organized 'lifestylers'--need to get to a common and unambiguous position, namely that predatory sexual behaviors are absolutely intolerable, and that those who make advances that are either unwanted or made towards vulnerable populations will be immediately exposed, expelled and reported to appropriate authorities. Both groups need to take an especially strong position on this matter, and I expect that both would benefit from taking a strong and common position on this matter.
Finally, as several posters in this thread have suggested, there's something that rings slightly hollow creating an expectation that (social) nudists somehow shed their sexuality along with their clothes. We also need to be cautious of euphemistic labels such as 'family values', since euphemisms are subject to misinterpretation. Clear statements on sexuality in the context of social nudism that distinguish the latter from the more public and less discriminate eroticism of lifestylers might be worth the effort to develop.
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asmodee
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Posted - 01/29/2007 : 4:12:37 PM
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Well put, Pilot. I agree with points 1 and 2, but have no experience to judge on point 3. My main point was this; if a facility does not plainly and blatantly state specific types of behavior which are allowable (of the behaviors not generally allowable in public areas in the same country or state) then those behaviors are still illegal in the "public" areas of these places. For instance, a resort may be advertised as "swingers welcome" or a trip may be advertised as "adults only", but that does not state that I agree to be propositioned, that I agree to public displays of sexual activity or that I agree to be publicly displayed for the sexual gratification of other. Just like it would be illegal if I booked a room at the Hilton and, when I got there, was informed that I had to strip in the lobby because I was not a member and if I refused I would be turned away and my money forfeit. If I was not warned in advance that the laws concerning public nudity at the Hilton are suspended and replaced by enforced nudity and specifically agree to that before booking a room, the law is on my side. Now on the other side of the coin, a nudist resort is no different than a hotel where the guests agree that clothing is optional or not allowed. Obviously, you know in advance that you are booking a room at a nudist resort, so when you get there it is not a surprise. However, when I get there it would be a great shock if everyone there was having sex in the lobby and motioning me over. I would never purposely book a room at such a place. I would not be comfortable at such a place. That means that I most certainly did NOT agree to being propositioned or public displays of sexual activity. Some of these resorts tend to think that using terms like "swinger friendly" excuse them from having to blatantly spell out what is allowed. Legally, it does not. Just like the Hilton would have to tell me if they adopted a policy of allowing public nudity on the grounds, any nudist resort legally has to tell me if they have adopted a policy that may make me slip on something disgusting in the lobby. Whether my money is refunded promptly or not, simply seeing activities not normally allowable in public without warning prior to booking the room is a violation of law. I simply believe that nudists experiencing this, rare as it may be, should press for their rights to the full extent, not only to get justice because an injustice WAS done to them, but also to protect future nudists from the same or worse experience. Maybe the next nudist family to show up is not as strong willed. Maybe they don't have the money or time to simply book a room at another resort. The offending resort should be punished repeatedly until their complete policy is made public knowledge before a potential customer signs up.
I do not have a problem at all with swinger facilities where sex in public areas is common place or in which a man or woman will get propositioned no less than a dozen times on the way to their room. I do have a problem with facilities which do not specifically spell out that they consider this behavior to be acceptable and I have a VERY big problem with facilities which even allow minors of ANY age to check in where sexual conduct is, in any way, publicly acceptable. I have a problem with facilities which allow 20-somethings to attend looking to "hook up" with, if no one their own age is available, 16 year old girls. I think a nudist facility should be just that and should have no more to do with the dating scene than any non-nude resort.
And I really don't have to explain this to you, the people of this board. When you think, "nudist resort", I am sure that most of you think of exactly the same thing I do. A place no different from any other place except that everyone is nude and, possibly, a little friendlier to complete strangers than most. That is what a "nudist" facility is and, I am sure from the posts, that is what MOST nudist facil
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