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VLM34
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 Posted - 11/06/2008 : 12:45:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warmskin
Nudism is a state of being, wherein a person does exactly the same things as clothed people do in ordinary activities at home, or in sheltered places, except without clothes on.
Wordy. We could say: Nudism is a state of being, in which nudists do what clothed people do in ordinary activities at home, or in sheltered places, except without clothes on.
That's better, but it still has problems. First, why limit nudism to "ordinary activities" at home? What are "ordinary activities"? What extraordinary activities do you intend to exclude? Second, why limit nudism to sheltered places? You can't possibly mean to say that that nudism can only be practiced inside.
So, let's edit again. We could say: Nudism is a state of being, in which nudists do what clothed people do at home or elsewhere, except without clothes on.
But what does "state of being" add to the definition? And "home or elsewhere" reduces to "anywhere."
So now we have: Nudism is doing what clothed people do, except without clothes on.
That's still wordy: "without clothes on" is just a long way of saying "nude"; "clothed people" is just a long way of saying "non-nudists."
So, now we have:
Nudism is doing nude what non-nudists do clothed.
Voila! I think we have it!
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Country: France
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Warmskin
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/06/2008 : 01:37:46 AM
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I see you have the same concern I do, in keeping the definition as the least verbose as possible. I thought that there are some things that nudists cannot do such go shopping at their local markets, store, deposit checks, and more, the need for further modifications for the precise definition. There are simply some things in our regular life that must be done clothed. Doggone it!!!
That government governs best, which governs least - Thomas Jefferson
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Country: USA
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Admin
Forum Admin
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Posted - 11/06/2008 : 11:15:21 AM
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Nudism is doing nude what non-nudists do clothed, wherever it is likely no one would be offended.
This eliminates nudism for shock value.
How's that?
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Country: USA
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 01:00:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warmskin
I thought that there are some things that nudists cannot do such go shopping at their local markets, store, deposit checks, and more, the need for further modifications for the precise definition. There are simply some things in our regular life that must be done clothed. Doggone it!!!
What one cannot do nude depends partly on one's wimp index and partly on where one is. I hope you weren't planning to include a psychological test and a country by country, state by state, county by county, city by city list of statutes, ordinances, and enforcement priorities.
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Country: France
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 01:07:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
Nudism is doing nude what non-nudists do clothed, wherever it is likely no one would be offended.
This eliminates nudism for shock value.
How's that?
You added nine words to an eight word definition! That's not good, not good at all.
I also strongly disagree on philosophical grounds. As citizens of a (supposedly) free country, we're all obliged to set aside our personal hang ups so that others may do as they harmlessly wish. The burden is thus on _you_ to demonstrate conclusively that merely seeing a merely nude human harms anyone. It may discomfit some, but I think you'll have a very hard time demonstrating any real harm.
If you can demonstrate that offense equates to harm, you'll have opened up Pandora's box. I'll immediately claim that unnecessary clothing offends me, that I'm shocked by those who cover themselves in cloth on warm days. Will you then join me in insisting that the cloth-addicted are obligated to strip to assuage _my_ delicate sensibilities? Or will you wiggle?
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"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" - Wiccan Rede
"Tolerate others as you would have others tolerate you." - sometimes attributed to Jesus of Nazareth
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg ." - Thomas Jefferson, who wasn't including 'being offended' in his conception of 'being injured.'
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 02:06:19 AM
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VLM34, the burden is on _you_ to live in the real world, which has real consequences for individuals who cross the lines of what is acceptable in their society.
I am sympathetic to the idea that anyone should be able to be nude anywhere, so long as their behavior otherwise conforms to what is expected of a decent person. However, that sort of state is so far from being reality that we'd be better served by focusing on increased attendance at nudist resorts and venues first. Once nudity is seen as not only a natural but also normal state in the broader culture, we'll have a hope of working from philosophical and legal principles, if that's determined to be desirable.
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nudeisbetter
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 06:07:24 AM
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If nudism were the norm (no one wore clothes) would it still be called nudism? Would it still be considered a "lifestyle"? Before nudism was there "textilism"? Personally I don't consider it a lifestyle. I just don't wear clothes sometimes. It's sort of a hobby for me, but barely. I mean, how can NOT doing something be a hobby? Well, I have to go to certain places specifically (besides my house) to not wear clothes, so I guess it's doing something. Tomorrow I'm going nude bowling - I suppose that could be a hobby too. As I mentioned much earlier I think the definition of nudism is not wearing clothes - no more, no less.
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Country: USA
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 4:18:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thornapplebison
VLM34, the burden is on _you_ to live in the real world, which has real consequences for individuals who cross the lines of what is acceptable in their society.
If everyone accepted your advice, the colonies would still belong to England, women still would still be prohibited from owning property, blacks would still be slaves, and neither women nor blacks would be allowed to vote.
Society is not static. Mores do change, but they don't change by magic. They change because some people think about how society could become better, and then set out to make the necessary changes.
Other people accept the status quo, never think about what needs changing, and would never, never work up the gumption to try to change anything.
quote:
I am sympathetic to the idea that anyone should be able to be nude anywhere, so long as their behavior otherwise conforms to what is expected of a decent person.
Then ignore your own advice, gird up your gumption, and DO something to make it happen.
quote:
However, that sort of state is so far from being reality that we'd be better served by focusing on increased attendance at nudist resorts and venues first.
How do you think those places came into being? If those who started them and who protect them had taken your advice, nudist places would not exist.
You happily accept changes made in the past by people who flatly rejected your advice, yet insist that your advice is valid now.
quote:
Once nudity is seen as not only a natural but also normal state in the broader culture ...
How will huddling together out of sight of the public change the perception of the public? History would seem to show that segregation serves only to justify continued segregation.
I can just see the advice you'd have given Martin Luther King, Junior. I think you'd have said, "Stay in your own part of town, Mr King. Stay invisible. Don't even think of showing your skin in a white neighborhood, don't even think of eating at a lunch counter on Main Street. Keep out of sight. Sit in the back of the bus. Don't make waves. Wait for blackness to be seen as not only a natural but also normal state in the broader culture. Just wait and wait and wait and wait. The burden is on _you_, Mr King, to live in the real world, which has real consequences for individuals who cross the lines of what is acceptable in their society."
quote:
... we'll have a hope of working from philosophical and legal principles, if that's determined to be desirable.
And just who do you think will determine if (and when) that's desirable?
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Country: France
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 4:27:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nudeisbetter
As I mentioned much earlier I think the definition of nudism is not wearing clothes - no more, no less.
So, taking a shower nude, all alone, is nudism? Having sex while nude is nudism?
What about a nude body in a cooler in a morgue? Is that nudism too?
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nudeisbetter
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 5:36:33 PM
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Sure, why not? I guess everyone is a nudist after all. Except, of course, Dr. Tobias Funke. Cool - problems solved.
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Edited by - nudeisbetter on 11/07/2008 5:38:09 PM |
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thornapplebison
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/07/2008 : 8:02:04 PM
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VLM34 -- you are definitely a crusader. I admire your passion. So long as you don't embrace violent means, you can count me in your army. Awaiting orders, Chief.
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/08/2008 : 03:21:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thornapplebison
VLM34 -- you are definitely a crusader. I admire your passion. So long as you don't embrace violent means, you can count me in your army. Awaiting orders, Chief.
You misconstrue. We don't need more followers awaiting orders. We need more leaders.
My only "order" to you or anyone would be, "Establish a new clothing-optional area on public land in or near your town. Take it, use it, and hold on to it."
When you're challenged by the "authorities" - as you eventually will be - negotiate a deal. The deal goes like this: You'll agree that it's been bad-bad-bad of y'all to harmlessly break their silly law in the area you're using, and will promise to stop breaking their silly law in that area, on condition that they officially designate as clothing-optional the area you're using so that you have no further need to harmlessly break their silly law in the area you're using given that their silly law, upon designation, no longer applies in the area you're using.
As a bonus, to cinch the deal, you'll offer to stop calling their silly law a "silly *$@#&^* law" and to stop calling the "authorities" a bunch of "ignorant, unsophisticated, anti-liberty, uptight, killjoy, sexual-fantasy-filled, prude wankers" whenever reporters are within earshot.
All it takes is you and three or four equally hardass buddies, one of whom should be a slinky professional woman with great legs and a propensity for short skirts, and another of whom should be a sanctimonious bible quoter who can go on for hours, chapter and verse. about God's approval of nudity. You'll also need a couple dozen followers who will come to public meetings and clap loudly at appropriate moments.
Followers are easy to find, although getting them to public meetings can be challenging. That's where your leadership comes in.
The formula works.
So, my friend, get at it.
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Country: France
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thornapplebison
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/08/2008 : 07:19:24 AM
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You first. Let me know how it goes, and what challenges I should expect.
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Admin
Forum Admin
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Posted - 11/08/2008 : 1:13:36 PM
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The "no unnecessary offense" factor still applies, the way I see it. Just one or two bozos badly choosing their place to be nude can effectively sour your more reasonable approach of nurturing a deal with the authorities.
I think it would be reasonable to assume the past history of "nudist" violations would bear somewhat on the decisions made by lawmakers.
Personally, I highly support your suggestion, VLM34, provided it truly is a group dynamic with good leadership. I'm not so comfortable with individuals going off and doing their own thing in public in the name of saving our liberties, because so many things can go wrong, with lasting consequences.
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Country: USA
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VLM34
Forum Member
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Posted - 11/08/2008 : 2:34:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
The "no unnecessary offense" factor still applies, the way I see it. Just one or two bozos badly choosing their place to be nude can effectively sour your more reasonable approach of nurturing a deal with the authorities.
The approach I described begins with one or two (or four or five) individuals laying claim to nude territory by frequently being nude there, and by encouraging others to join them. If the original group of lawbreakers fail to establish new nude territory, they're called bozos, villified, and long remembered as an example of what not to do. If they succeed, they're called bozos and villified as having risked disaster by acting without the authorization of those who claim to represent the one and only credible voice of nude recreation.
One knows the bozos have succeeded when AANR sends a dozen club members who've never been there before - complete with a huge banner and a photographer - to spend half an hour pretending to pick up trash. Pictures of the AANRists in front of the banner are plastered all over The Bulletin above a headline that says, "AANR ESTABLISHES NEW NUDE BEACH."
quote:
I think it would be reasonable to assume the past history of "nudist" violations would bear somewhat on the decisions made by lawmakers.
Yes, definitely. The more violations the authorities think will be eliminated by designating an area clothing-optional, the more incentive they have to do the designation.
quote:
Personally, I highly support your suggestion, VLM34, provided it truly is a group dynamic with good leadership. I'm not so comfortable with individuals going off and doing their own thing in public in the name of saving our liberties, because so many things can go wrong, with lasting consequences.
Like I said, one doesn't know which is which until it's all over. Failure is villified. Success is villified, then hijacked.
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Country: France
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