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McNigel
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 Posted - 02/14/2010 : 05:34:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by KM
especially McNigel and his "it's not an issue" attitude. Yes, I hate apologists.
You want to watch that hate, it's a truly dreadful thing.
So nudity is illegal in all but very small areas?
There's no law against it in Spain, but as I have been trying to say there is a very strong sense of etiquette and the Spanish are very good at letting you know if you get it wrong.
There seems to be an implication here that because I don't feel threatened by something, I am in some way complicit.
The Mrs and I have been going to topless and nudist beaches for decades and sometimes there are idiots in the hedges, but it doesn't make us angry, or feel threatened. What's the worst that could happen. There are far more serious evils in the world and laws that already need enforcing.
In the end it's partly our own fault, for putting our irresistibly beautiful bodies on display.
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KM
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 12:06:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
You want to watch that hate, it's a truly dreadful thing.
Nice to not include the sentence I wrote after that. You really are like a politician! Wait, let me guess, I'm attacking the person by comparing them to a politician, right? Anyway...
quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
So nudity is illegal in all but very small areas?
Correct. Just like in the UK, I'm pretty sure. And yes, I know about the Spanish law. But this law could by applied in Spain as well. Nudity may be legal in all of Spain, but it's not like you typically have people walking around nude in the streets of Madrid (and yes, I have been to Spain). There are, it is my understanding, certain beaches that specifically known as "nude beaches." And that's where the law could be applied. But in truth, I'm an American, and am primarily interested in dealing with this problem in the US. Other countries can fight their own battles.
quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
but as I have been trying to say there is a very strong sense of etiquette and the Spanish are very good at letting you know if you get it wrong.
I've looked back on all your posts in this thread, and I certainly don't see anything expressing that sentiment. But at least now you seem to be acknowledging that there is a "right" and "wrong" on nude beaches. Good, that's an improvement.
quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
There seems to be an implication here that because I don't feel threatened by something, I am in some way complicit.
Even if you don't understand what the big deal is about the photography, if you understand that it bothers OTHER PEOPLE (and I seriously don't know how you could not), and if you are discouraging this from being dealt with (which is seems like you ARE), then in a very real way, yes, you are complicit. And I'm sorry, but I do think that's a little bit disingenuous coming from a middle aged male. Beautiful bodies joke aside, again, you are not the target. It's your lack of empathy that I find disturbing.
quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
There are far more serious evils in the world and laws that already need enforcing.
In the grand scheme of things, sure. But this is pretty damn bad, especially within the scope of nude beaches, which is what we're talking about here. And I certainly think it's objectification of women (again, completely antithetical to supposed naturist ideals) at best, and a form of sexual harassment at worst. Plus, whether you understand it or not, it COULD ruin people's lives. You think nudity is no big deal? That's fine, but most of the world does, and we all need to be cognizant of that.
Admin, I hope you respond to my comments to from last night.
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Diger
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 12:35:01 PM
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No KM it wouldn't be ironic at all cause Digital cowboy was just out to argue with everything anyone had to say. Just the way you are doing now. How about just sitting back and sharing some of your vast nudist experiences with others. Cause when you share with others you’re not putting them down.
The reason people here are shouting Troll is that non of us know a thing about you except you love to argue. I have seen many just like you come and go from here, but don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to put you down, just point out why you are causing such a stir.
What I can suggest is back off a little and share with us who you are and some of your nudist experiences. That is the true nature of this board and if I may add, the true nature of real nudists.
I'll say it would be great to prevent Photography abuse on Nude Beaches but when the laws are endangering the nude beaches we have now, it's not likely to happen.
Diger
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KM
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 1:08:48 PM
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Diger,
Okay, a few points. If I went around arguing SEVERAL topics, that could be a legitimate claim. This is just one issue, but one I think is extremely important. On a whole lot of things, we probably agree, but I probably don't have much to add to those discussions. Again, all I introduced was a topic relating to abuse of naturists and a proposal to prevent that abuse. Forgive me if I didn't expect that to get me labeled as a "troll" or "trouble maker." I mean, if I registered here and started a topic called "why nudism sucks," yeah, I guess that would make me pretty troll-worthy. That wasn't exactly the case, though. Look, naturism has problems right now, and in a way, that's a good thing considering its unpopularity. I mean, imagine if it were operating at full capacity and were still this unpopular! At least as it stands now, there's substantial room for improvement. And that's what I'm trying to fight for.
And I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Please judge my arguments on their merits, not how much "nudist cred" I have. Are you denying that abusive photography takes place on nude beaches? Then PM me and I'll PM you some links. In truth, that's really all I have to know to know that this is a problem. As for not sharing more about myself, you know what, I'm a pretty private person, and have every right to be. And I work in a very conservative industry. So, it's necessary for me to be careful. I don't see how that impacts my arguments one way or another.
As for not being able to prevent photography, there's some "which came first, the chicken or the egg" there. Maybe if nude beaches were made "less pervy," there would be less incentive to close nude beaches. I mean, which has been more responsible for the closing of nude beaches? Perverted behavior, or people fighting perverted behavior? Plus, quite honestly, what has ever been accomplished with that attitude?
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Diger
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 5:41:16 PM
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KM,
I agree with a lot of what you have to say but you yourself know that the pervy behavior you are talking about can never be legislated out of existence. That can never be accomplished until naturism is commonplace and understood, that way it will not have the thrill for the perv that it does now. However even then it will never be eliminated but on the other hand if naturism was understood it would not be harmful to ones reputation if you were found out either. I think I said that right ... LOL
Just a thought.
Diger
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KM
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 6:21:43 PM
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Diger,
Okay, it seems like you and I are maybe getting along a bit better, which is something at least. Anyway, no, I can't say I exactly agree with that. What I think is that you can't legislate perverted THOUGHTS out of existence, but you CAN legislate a particular perverted practice, in this case the taking of pictures of naturists and putting them on adult websites. Just like you can't legislate pedophilia out of existence, but you can, well, severely limit the amount of child pornography that exists. Now you're going to say that child pornography still exists, and you're right. But do you really think there wouldn't be a lot more if there were no laws against it? I mean, to take that rationale to the extreme, should we also legalize murder because making murder illegal hasn't prevented all murders from happening? Laws can never eliminate something bad from happening, but they can seriously curtail it. And that's would happen here -- you would simply be increasing the risk to those practicing it.
Also, you want naturism to become more accepted in society. But if people, especially young people, feel that a nude beach is an unsafe place for them, how do you expect to "get the ball rolling?" That is, before naturism can become more accepted, more people have to participate. For that to happen, you need to remove as many deterrents as possible. In spite of what some people apparently think, the threat of being used as porn is QUITE a deterrent. So, again, it comes down to a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" scenario. Similarly, you say until naturism is "understood." By that you probably mean that it's accepted as a non-adult activity. As I said back in my original post, this has to stop "if naturism is to have any legitimate credibility as a wholesome family-friendly activity for average everyday people. Believe it or not, wholesome family-friendly activities for average everyday people tend not to be breeding grounds for adult entertainment." Make sense?
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Diger
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 10:19:13 PM
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Km,
Using pedophilia and murder as a comparison to the pervs you were talking about has one flaw to it. Society considers the victims of those crimes as innocent but they are far from believing nudists are innocent. Even if it were a nudist child getting photographed by a pedophile, society would see the parents as much at fault by exposing their child, as was the perv for taking the photo. I don't agree but you see the uphill battle nudists face with society. So until society looks upon us in a different light I just don’t see it happening even as much as all of us would like it.
I on the other hand do believe in doing what we can. Myself and some of our friends have confronted pervs on the beach before and we will continue to do so. The one thing a perv doesn’t want is any attention brought to them. What we have found is they retreat very quickly. I know some don’t think what we do is acceptable but others on the nude beach are always appreciative of the results.
Diger
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KM
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/14/2010 : 10:43:12 PM
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Diger,
Well, all I was saying was that the "it won't stop it anyway" excuse can be applied to a ANYTHING that is banned. And, generally speaking, when you ban something, it does, in fact, diminish substantially. As for getting such a law passed, remember, what I said is that groups like AANR and TNS should lobby for something like that. How can it possibly hurt to try?
Furthermore, I go back to a point I made in an earlier post -- I'm not sure if you saw it or not. Take a look at this: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=28978662 . It's pretty much about this issue, Hippie Hollow in Austin being the location in question. Not only is this NOT a naturist forum, it's a photography forum -- that is, a forum with people with a vested interest in photography rights. Even the guy who started the topic admits that "most people would say its fine to ban this type of photography." Now, his concern is that banning it would lead to banning other kinds of photography, but that wouldn't be the case if the law were to be worded as I proposed (since it would ONLY cover places in which nudity is legal). And several of the people who responded had very little sympathy for the photographer -- one person (Steinr98) also said that he didn't really consider a nude beach "out in public." Are these people unrepresentative of the general population? Maybe, but I don't see any evidence for it. Let me ask you this: how many women (non-naturist) do you think would be supportive of this kind of photography? I would guess not too many. The point is, maybe society doesn't think of nudists as innocent, but they seem to like perverts even less. Judging by this link, I don't think society would be nearly as hostile to such a law as you seem to think.
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Edited by - KM on 02/14/2010 10:44:55 PM |
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McNigel
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 03:56:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by KM
In spite of what some people apparently think, the threat of being used as porn is QUITE a deterrent.
I think the public would immediately perceive a dichotomy in this argument.
On the one hand it's natural and harmless to be naked on a public beach, but apparently it's also pornographic.
quote:
Originally posted by KM
but it's not like you typically have people walking around nude in the streets of Madrid
I thought that's exactly what I had already said.
You don't (often) see naked people on Spanish city streets, not because it's illegal, but because of etiquette.
In the same way the public would definitely think that pointing cameras at anybody on a beach is very poor form, but they would think it unnecessary to have a law against it.
A lot of laws get passed these days by people shouting pervert/terrorist/pedophile/danger/panic and many get misused.
This could easily turn into a call for a much more restrictive law. Just watch what you wish for.
Just out of interest has anybody here ever suffered from having a photo of themselves published? Or for that matter quite happy.
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KM
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 1:43:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
On the one hand it's natural and harmless to be naked on a public beach, but apparently it's also pornographic.
One word, McNigel: context. I've already gone over this, so I'm just going to copy and paste my earlier comment into this post:
"I'll put it this way. I'm about to say something most naturists probably never say (another way I split with many naturists, I suppose). Some parts of the human body are, as a result of evolution, more sexually attractive than others and meant to entice, and they're the parts you see on a nude beach but generally not elsewhere. Whoa! What an admission! But seriously, my take on that you're on a nude beach, in that natural setting in which people are enjoying recreation, SOMEHOW that effect is offset. It's kind of hard to put into words, but I hope that most of you can relate to this. Now, when people are sitting there at home in front of their computer and THEN looking at those same parts, that context is lost. Honestly, McNigel, what do you think people are doing as they're looking at these images? Feeling the thrill of people (usually young women, oddly enough) enjoying nature? Come on. You know exactly what they're doing as they're looking at the images. It would be naive to think otherwise."
Plus, as I said in my last post, just because you (and probably all of us here) think that it's completely natural and harmless, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world does. And for most of us, the rest of the world matters. Going to the bathroom is completely natural, too. It doesn't mean that people would want it pictured and used as entertainment for others.
In a discussion on another naturist forum, not about picture taking, but staring, one woman aptly stated (and I'm paraphrasing here), "if I wanted to use my body to entertain men, I'd dance in a strip club and get paid for it."
The point, of course, is that naturism is something meant to be felt, not seen.
quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
In the same way the public would definitely think that pointing cameras at anybody on a beach is very poor form, but they would think it unnecessary to have a law against it.
I hope you see the dichotomy (or "inconsistency," you probably mean) in THAT argument. If it's so natural, why is it even bad etiquette to take pictures of others on the beach? Is it bad etiquette to take pictures of others on a street, or at a sporting event, etc.? Well, maybe it is, actually, but is it AS bad as taking pictures of others on a nude beach?
And, again, what about something like "upskirt" photography? Do people just say that it's bad etiquette to take a picture up a woman's skirt? No, they say it should be banned. That is, it's necessary to have a law against it. And if you saw the link I posted in my last response to Diger, you'll see that even some NON-naturists think that covert photography on a nude beach should be banned -- not that it's just bad etiquette.
McNigel, you know what? No matter what, I'm done with you. You're obviously not even reading my points and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. And you continue to basically defend the photographers and the websites that abuse naturism (at least defending them against the charge of pornography, in the case of this last post). What's sad, I think, is that in a just world, it is YOU who would be labeled as a troll in a naturist forum!
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McNigel
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 2:42:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by KM
McNigel, you know what? No matter what, I'm done with you. You're obviously not even reading my points and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. And you continue to basically defend the photographers and the websites that abuse naturism (at least defending them against the charge of pornography, in the case of this last post).
That isn't even close to what I said. I have never defended photographers or websites that exploit nudism.
Your statement is libelous.
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FireProf
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 8:11:46 PM
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Admin....
Don't you think it's time someone gave KM the HOOK!?
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Diger
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 8:30:45 PM
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KM,
You defiantly have a passion for this and I agree it is a problem however I personally have not found it to be a huge problem. I’m not saying that it’s a trivial problem but that we have only had to deal with it a time or two. The only problem I have with this is I personally don’t think government needs to legislate simple manors. I believe in smaller government and fewer laws. As you may have guessed I am a conservative and don’t believe in government doing for me what I can do for myself. At the nude beach we go to the patrons there police their own beach and it works. Apollo has been known as a good first time place to go for many years so it must be working.
We personally know a lady known as the Beach Mom of San Onofre, she was one of the pioneers of that beach that helped clean it up and turn it into the premier nude beach it is. (Until the State of California started trying to shut it down) She tells tales about the old days of running the pervs off. In those days there were lots of cameras that went in the ocean and a few people strong-armed off the beach. Till it became a place a family could enjoy without worry. The people there took ownership of the beach and would take care of each other. I think that is the way things should be now days, and we do see some of that today at the beach we love.
I wish you the best in your endeavor but in the mean time I and most of my friends, plan on not putting up with pervs at our beach.
Sorry for calling you Digital Cowboy I can tell I was wrong about that.
Diger
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Country: USA
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KM
Forum Member
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 10:14:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Diger
I believe in smaller government and fewer laws. As you may have guessed I am a conservative and don’t believe in government doing for me what I can do for myself.
Ah, okay. I thought that might be the case. That's something I've actually run into on other forums as well. Apparently there are a lot of small-government naturists out there (either conservative or even libertarians), which I guess makes sense when you think about it. And that's fine -- I'm not a huge fan of government either. It's just that this is one case in which I think we need some government. At any rate, I make a huge distinction between opposing such legislation out of political ideology vs. opposing such legislation because one doesn't believe such photography is a problem, or even the blame-the-victim "that's what you get for going to a nude beach" attitude.
I'm going to PM you something -- please look out for it.
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Admin
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Posted - 02/15/2010 : 11:23:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by McNigel
quote:
Originally posted by KM
McNigel, you know what? No matter what, I'm done with you. You're obviously not even reading my points and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. And you continue to basically defend the photographers and the websites that abuse naturism (at least defending them against the charge of pornography, in the case of this last post). What's sad, I think, is that in a just world, it is YOU who would be labeled as a troll in a naturist forum!
That isn't even close to what I said. I have never defended photographers or websites that exploit nudism.
Your statement is libelous.
KM, the hook is indeed reaching out from the edge of the stage, and it's about to end your time in the spotlight, if you don't take to heart what I provided in my first warning. This is the second. There won't be a third.
I've had to re-read all of McNigel's posts in this thread, and I cannot see where he defended covert nude beach photographers against the charge of pornography. This seems to be a case of your putting words in his mouth that were never uttered, based on an implied premise on your part that all covert photography at nude beaches is pornography.
That's too bad, because this thread was just starting to get interesting, until the comment on your part with an all-caps "YOU" accusing McNigel of making statements he never made. Are you baiting me?
KM, you are obviously a very intelligent man, and you make a strong argument. Much of what you say I agree with. However, we've had strong arguers in this forum before whose main intent was to prove themselves right, with no regard to courtesy or supporting camaraderie. It appears you're picking fights. You have my full attention. Your move.
Despite your intelligent arguments, this thread has many of the hallmarks of troll craft. Just the personal time it takes me to re-read the posts and provide these courteous and detailed answers is one sign of it. Your choice of controversial material is another. Your tactic of misrepresenting others' points of view is another. Engaging simultaneous arguments with several members is another. Numerous members getting annoyed is another. Flags flags flags. We've all been here before.
If you lose your posting privileges here, you can always post over at Rec.nude, where there is no moderation and they seem to enjoy being nasty with each other. Over here, we prefer to address our issues with a united front, not a divided one. Camaraderie is first. That doesn't mean we all must hold the same opinions, but it does mean we must share them with respect.
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Photography Abuse on Nude Beaches
