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Admin
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 Posted - 03/19/2002 : 10:51:05 PM
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A significant number of beach-going nudists feel we jeopardise our "unofficial" nude beaches by giving out the locations to the public. Soon, the media or the radical right get organized against clothing-optional use, and the beach is closed to nude use. How can we let nudists know about the best locations for discrete nude sunbathing, without risking losing our beaches?
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Country: USA
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usvera
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Posted - 08/22/2002 : 02:13:47 AM
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I am sorry... I just don't beleive this at all..!
I think the more people that know the better... social nudism in the USA is becoming more popular than it has ever been... and many people just have no idea where to go. Lets face it... there are NO OFFICIAL nude beaches or nude anyplaces... Federal Law supercedes local or state law and there is NO PLACE one can legally be nude IN PUBLIC in the United States of America... not even at a nudist club or resort.
It seems to me that the more people who know where they can go and be nude without being hassled or arrested the better... because more people WILL GO if they know where to go. Several California Rangers have told me the same thing on the coastal beaches here. They have said if there are lots of people nude on a beach and there are no significant problems... they will not bother those people at all... and the more people who enjoy nude recreation... the better our chances are of changing those laws. I have even been nude on beaches with lots of people and been the only one nude... and never had any problem from anyone. In fact women have commented on how nice it was to see someone so relaxed and sevaral times taken off their swimsuits and joined me being nude on the beach.
So lets keep the ball rolling... get out there and take off those clothes... and get as many folks as you can to join you..!
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the benefit of women everywhere..!
http://www.DiabloSunDevils.com
Devils@DiabloSunDevils.com
Edited by - usvera on 08/22/2002 4:28:43 PM
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james423
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Posted - 08/25/2002 : 9:23:31 PM
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Vera,
I believe you are half right (that being that there are no OFFICIAL nude beaches, as none have been officially designated as such by the government). However, there are MANY places where one can legally be nude in public. There are LEGAL nude beaches (as opposed to OFFICIAL nude beaches) & why can't one legally be nude even at a nudist resort? At least in my jurisdiction that simply isn't the case -if a nudist resort or club is licensed to operate within the jurisdiction, one certainly can legally be nude there. I am an admitted attorney in my jurisdiction (Yes, I admit it -I'm an attorney!) & would never advise anyone here that there was no place where one could legally be nude in public -I was legally nude in public earlier today.
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Cheri
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Posted - 08/25/2002 : 9:57:01 PM
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James, Welcome to the group. I've absolutely no problems associating with lawyers. I've been married to one for almost 9 yrs.
Vera, Some national land has been turned over to local authorities to
manager, ie., Pisgah National Forest in N.C. Nudity is not legal there since a year or so ago.
There are legal nude beaches: Haulover in North Miami, FL is recognized as is Rooster Rock and Sauvie Island in OR and in New Jersey there is Sandy Hook.
Regards, Cheri
http://pages.prodigy.net/travelites
Doing what I can to positively promote nudism
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Edited by - Cheri on 08/25/2002 9:58:51 PM
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usvera
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Posted - 08/26/2002 : 04:24:28 AM
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Some Healthy Reaction... Wonderful..!
I thought this might get some strong objections... and I am glad that it has James and Cheri... perhaps it will stir some attorney somewhere to try and get some changes made in your Country..!
I say your Country as I only came to the USA a little over 4 years ago... at which time I applied for permanent residency. As you might imagine... I have been deeply involved with the United States Government and the Immigration and Naturalization Service... as well as with several prominent immigration attorneys... ever since. I received my permanent residency just a couple of months ago and have now applied for citizenship here... and I hope to call this my Country soon.
Where I am from we did not have much freedom... but all of the beaches are clothing optional and have been for over thirteen hundred years..! Imagine my surprise... when I was told by Federal Officials of the United States Government... that nudity is not allowed here and even though there are a number of clothing optional beaches and other places in the United States... none have "Official Designation" of the United States Government and under Federal Law I would be subject to arrest for indecent exposure at any one of them... even if I was only topless..!
I love the United States... and I have the highest degree of respect for all the laws here... but... as do the majority of Americans today... I do not think this law is good. Today the nations of Australia, Austria, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Jamaica, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Scotland, the USSR, Yugoslavia, and many, many others have officially designated clothing optional beaches. Countries that do not have officially designated clothing optional areas are Mexico, China, nearly all of the Muslim countries such as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan along with many others... and believe this or not... the United States of America... the land of the free..!
So James... you say there are many places one can be legally nude in public... and many legal nude beaches... can you name one..?
Cheri named North Miami in Florida... Rooster Rock and Sauvie Island in Oregon... and Sandy Hook in New Jersey as being "recognized" and I am sure she is correct... but recognized by who..? Recognized by the Local Government... the City... the County... and maybe even the State..? But I assure you... they are not recognized by the Federal Laws of United States Government... and those laws take precedence over any and all others in the United States of America... and as an attorney I think you know that..!
I feel safe being nude in all of the places Cheri mentioned... as well as the many nudist clubs and resorts I have visited and even belong to. But... I am aware that at any time the "Feds" as you call them... can come in and arrest everyone present for indecent exposure... even if it is a "nudist resort or club licensed to operate within the jurisdiction"... as you stated. I am sure that Cheri... having been involved with nudism for the past 34 years... can tell you that it has happened in the past.
I really could go into much more detail as to why I know this is true... but let me just say this. My wonderful American husband who I married three years ago had a hard time believing what I am telling you was true also... and he sure didn't want his lovely sweet Sun Devil wife  to be deported for such a ridiculous offense... now did he..? So... he contacted his long time attorney friend who was a California State Assemblyman for many years prior to serving as a United States Congressman... and to his dismay guess what my husband was told...
..."There is NO PLACE one can legally be nude IN PUBLIC in the United States of America"..!
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the ben
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Cheri
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Posted - 08/26/2002 : 09:25:17 AM
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The beaches I mentioned are legal nude beaches and are run and supervised by state or local governments. They are legal!
Doing what I can to positively promote nudism
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usvera
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/26/2002 : 2:04:30 PM
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quote:
The beaches I mentioned are legal nude beaches and are run and supervised by state or local governments. They are legal!
They may well be legal Cheri... I certainly don't want to argue with you or anyone else... but if they are part of the United States of America... you are subject to arrest..!
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the benefit of women everywhere..!
http://www.DiabloSunDevils.com
Devils@DiabloSunDevils.com
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usvera
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Posted - 08/26/2002 : 3:35:13 PM
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Thanks for the support Mr. Natural...
I have had to be a student of United States Government and the Laws of this Country for the past few years and they are at times very complex. I can tell you this however... the Constitution of the United States of America is based on the same "Victorian Law" that governs Great Britain. You might find "What is the History of Nudism" interesting if you care to read it. I am sometimes surprised at how many US citizens take their freedom for granted... freedom is a very fragile thing... and it is never ever free..!
In the picture above I am at Bonny Doon beach north of Santa Cruz in California just two weeks ago. It was the first time we were there and we were sitting on the beach nude when a Forest Ranger approached us and asked if everything was okay on the beach. We told him it was and then started a converstaion with him. He told told us that Bonny Doon has been known as a nude beach for over 20 years and on a hot day it sometimes attracts as many as 500 nude sun bathers. He also said they don't bother anyone there because they rarely have any significant problems... but as he was doing on this day... they do occasionally go down on the beach to check it out. He seemed very nice and I even asked if I could have Rod take a photo of me standing next to him... but he politley smiled and said he would rather not do that..!
During our conversation he told us that more and more people prefer to be nude on the beaches in Santa Cruz County and they rarely get any complaints from anyone... so it seemed to him that nude sun bathing would one day be legal as it is in many parts of the world. He walked around and spoke to a few other people and left without incedence... which I thought was wonderful and I still beleive that the more nudists that know where to go and be nude on a beach... the better off we will all be..!
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the benefit of women everywhere..!
http://www.DiabloSunDevils.com
Devils@DiabloSunDevils.com
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Cheri
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/26/2002 : 4:13:41 PM
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The current "N" magazine lists a number of beaches beginning on page 25 of vol.22.1
 Cheri
Doing what I can to positively promote nudism
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Edited by - Cheri on 08/26/2002 7:25:04 PM
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james423
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Posted - 08/27/2002 : 8:50:49 PM
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There is NO blanket Federal Government ban on nudity, so that contrary to earlier posting a beach or club run in accordance with local jurisdiction permitting nudity is NOT in violation of US Government laws. If in disagreement with my statement above, please show me the Federal Anti-Nudity ordinance. The ONLY place that I know of where there is a specific Federal ordinance prohibiting nudity is at Cape Cod, MA. That ordinance applies only to the beach at Cape Cod (not even to all of MA). There are still MANY places in MA where one may legally be nude. There are far too many places in the USA where one may legally be nude for me to even consider making a list. This does not mean that the US Government has specifically sanctioned nudity in these places, only that they have not prohibited nudity in these places. Almost all of the anti-nudity ordinances are at a state or local level & according to many of them you have to do more than just be nude. Some of them also are very specific in excluding nude resorts or clubs from the public places where nudity is prohibited. Yes, one can be nude on some beaches without violating ANY law (i.e., legally). None of these is an "0fficial" USA Government nude beach, but in none of these places is there any danger of being convicted of a crime or misdemeanor. I wouldn't say there's no danger of being arrested, because stranger things have happened. However, there would be no viable case to be made against someone who is nude on a legal nude beach. Some of these beaches even have government officials who will let you know EXACTLY where it is & isn't legal to be nude.
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Cheri
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Posted - 08/27/2002 : 9:07:17 PM
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Thank you very much, James.
Best regards, Cheri
Doing what I can to positively promote nudism
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Edited by - Cheri on 08/27/2002 9:11:18 PM
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james423
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Posted - 08/27/2002 : 9:20:42 PM
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As an aside to what is being discussed with regard to what is "legal" in the USA, the reasoning is that the Government must specifically state that nudity is legal for that to be the case. That is NOT the case. As long as something doesn't specifically violate a law, it is legal. Thus, it is legal under Federal law to take a sledge hammer & destroy your own car as long as it's done somewhere where you won't endanger anyone or create a nuisance (the middle of the Interstate would be a poor choice of location, but if you have a sufficiently large property you can do it). Why you would do it is another matter. Of course, the laws don't specifically state that you can do this. There are enough volumes of law without having to specifically address such cases, but sometimes they are in specific legal actions. There are many specific legal actions dealing with nudity & in several of these cases the defendant has been found not guilty of violating the law merely by being nude.
The Federal (US) government does give a lot of power to the states & local authorities and generally won't interfere if the state or local government passes an anti-nudity ordinance, so I wouldn't count on them saving you from a legal action brought at the state or local level. However, if a state or local government passes an ordinance or regulation specifically allowing nudity in certain instances or places you can generally count on the Federal government not to interfere. Even on most Federal land it isn't the Federal government that you have to worry about. The Federal government will allow local authorities to enforce local laws on Federal lands located within their jurisdictions so that if there's a state or local ordinance banning nudity you might not be safe even though you're on Federal land.
Know the law & know who you have to be wary of (NOT the Federal government in most cases).
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usvera
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Posted - 08/28/2002 : 03:45:25 AM
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James... and you call yourself an attorney at law...?
I think you have a little studying up to do my friend..! I will happily take the word of a United States Congressman... three prominent United States Immigration Attorneys... My own nationally known personal attorney... and also a former "District Attorney"... Michael A. Cardoza... as well as that of the Legal Staff of the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) long before I will pay any attention to your nonsense..!
Me and my husband spent a week at Yosemite National Park earlier this year and when we asked the Head Ranger if we could hike the back country trails nude he politely explained that Federal Law states that anyone caught or reported to the National Park Service hiking nude... or in a woman's case topless... in any National Park... National Forest or on Federal Land anywhere in this Country was subject to immediate arrest for "indecent exposure" and there are absolutely no exceptions. And you want me to believe what you just wrote about "Federal Lands"... please... you really have no business practicing or advising anyone of the legal statutes as they pertain to this area of the law.
..."There is 'NO PLACE' one can legally be nude 'IN PUBLIC' in the 'UNITED STATES OF AMERICA' without being subject to arrest for 'INDECENT EXPOSURE'... it is just that simple..!"
About the only thing I agree with what you have written is that the Federal Government most generally will not interfere as they really have much more important things to do... especially now... but they certainly have the power too if they wish..! Remember... the Federal Government reins supreme in the United States James... but obviously you have never tried a case before the Supreme Court... have you..!
My intention is certainly not to scare people away from being nude... on private... public... State or even Federal Lands... quite the contrary actually. If everyone in this country spent an entire day being nude the government would be so overwhelmed that they probably would not arrest... or at least not prosecute... anyone... and the likely outcome would be that someone would move to change the statutes as they pertain to "PUBLIC NUDITY" in the United States.
I personally choose to just go about my merry life being happy and to enjoy the freedom of being nude wherever I can... as long as it does not hurt anyone else or impose on their freedom. I cannot explain why... but normally if I take off my top or even decide to be nude on a public beach others will join me and no one has ever displayed any dissatisfaction. Some say it is because I seem to be so happy and carefree and that I am careful not to offend anyone ever... whatever the reason... it has not caused me any problems so far. But I would never under any circumstances give anyone any legal advice... you can... as you are an "Officer of the Court"... I just hope no one listens..! 
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the benefit of women everywhere..!
http://www.DiabloSunDevils.com
Devils@DiabloSunDevils.com
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usvera
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Posted - 08/28/2002 : 07:34:29 AM
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Usvera has an interesting point. Even though there are several beaches in the United States that are legally nude as far as local jurisdiction goes, those same beaches are violating federal law as it stands now. I don't believe there is any protective statute for mainstream nudism anywhere in federal law, unless one interprets the Constitution to include nudism under the Pursuit Of Happiness.
No Mr. Natural... I dont think the constitution does include 'Public Nudity' under the 'Pursuit of Happiness'... I sure wish it did though..! 
The United States is far behind the rest of western civilization in its negative attitude toward the human body... and in my opinion promotes body shame... especially when it comes to women..! Why should I have to cover my breasts on a public beach when the man sitting next to me has much bigger breasts than I do and he doesn't have to cover his..? This happened to me on a beach in Santa Cruz and the beach patrol came over and said... "Lady... you are required to wear a top here"... even though I had been told by a lifeguard the day before that women could be without a top anywhere that a man could be in all of Santa Cruz County..?
Most of Europe is comfortable with the concept of nude recreation on beaches and in vacation resorts yet western civilization stands almost alone in the entire known history of humanity in its repressive code against nudity. The courts have consistently concluded that mere nudity per se without being combined with some other protected form of expression... is not protected as free speech under the first amendment. They have distinguished between protected First Amendment beliefs and actual conduct based on those beliefs... arguing that going nude on a beach is "conduct" (i.e. indecent exposure) rather than merely the natural state of a human being..! 
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the benefit of women everywhere..!
http://www.DiabloSunDevils.com
Devils@DiabloSunDevils.com
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james423
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Posted - 08/28/2002 : 9:31:40 PM
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Dear Vera,
Suit yourself (or don't suit yourself, as you see fit), but:
1)Yes, I am an attorney duly admitted to practice for more than a few years.
2)Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. There is no blanket Federal statute prohibiting mere nudity. Federal authorities may in some cases enforce state laws, but it simply isn't true that you are violating a law simply by being nude on Federal land absent some local ordinance, except on certain portions of the beach at Cape Cod. You can also be arrested on the whim of any enforcement officer but that doesn't mean that you are violating the law -that's for a judge or jury to determine, and as previously stated the defendant is often found "not guilty" of the charge(s). Unless you are aware of a recently enacted Federal law specifically prohibiting nudity, you have no business insulting me.
3)Yes, I don't need the abuse. Don't bother addressing anything else to me, as I see no reason to continue here. You are obviously the authority as to what constitutes "illegal" behavior.
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usvera
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Posted - 08/30/2002 : 09:51:54 AM
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Dear James...
Please forgive me for insulting you... ...I am really sorry..!
I am no doubt much to passionate regarding this entire subject because of the way it could impact my own personal life. I am not the authority on what constitutes illegal behavior here or in any other Country... and I probably should not even be discussing it here and almost wish I hadn't even brought this subject up actually..!
I am not an attorney James... and I do not know of any recently enacted Federal law specifically prohibiting nudity or any other Federal law specifically prohibiting nudity. I did just speak with my attorney yesterday afternoon... and I am told you are right... there is not a Federal law that does specifically prohibit nudity in the United States..! So I am wrong when I say:
..."There is 'NO PLACE' one can legally be nude 'IN PUBLIC' in the 'UNITED STATES OF AMERICA' without being subject to arrest for 'INDECENT EXPOSURE'... it is just that simple..!"
He tells me I need to drop the lagally and say:
..."There is 'NO PLACE' one can be nude 'IN PUBLIC' in the 'UNITED STATES OF AMERICA' without being subject to arrest for 'INDECENT EXPOSURE'... it is just that simple..!"
... which he says is entirely correct..!
So... I guess Mr. Natural is right when he says you are "de jure" and I am "de facto"... whatever those things mean..? In any event... please accept my apologies James... and I want to thank you because I really have learned something. I took what I was told by several Governmant Officials as Gospel... and I suppose that isn't always the correct thing to do is it..? I still do beleive however... that the United States is far behind the rest of western civilization in its negative attitude toward the human body... and I think that promotes body shame... especially when it comes to women. I really am not some kind of a political activist... but I sure hope that changes here in the USA one day soon..!
Bare Hugz... Vera, the Sun Devil
The Diablo Sun Devils... a nudist club primarily for the benefit of women everywhere..!
http://www.DiabloSunDevils.com
Devils@DiabloSunDevils.com
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