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Admin
Forum Admin


Posted - 10/03/2008 :  10:09:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have no idea what Jim is trying to accomplish. My apologies to everyone for his behavior, but I really find this quite amusing.

Jim, if this forum is not what you want to participate in, you are welcome to post elsewhere. If you can abide by the rules, we welcome your comments.

This is a forum for people who can discuss things, even though we may have different views, as long as it's done politely, without bashing and making enemies of each other.



Country: USA | Posts: 1888 Go to Top of Page

FlCpl4NewdFun
Forum Member

Posted - 10/04/2008 :  1:37:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jim19452

Wow, you are a sick. Everyone has the right to disagree. Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!

Best Wishes, Jim



Jim - It's obvious you disagree. But you may want to reconsider using Nazi metaphor's to express your position.

I'm quite sure Admin banning an individual from a message board he owns and operates doesn't rise to the level of genocide and ethnic cleansing of an entire group of people.

You do realize tens of millions of people may find such associations quite insensitive, insulting, and offensive.

Well enough on that.

After reading Tuffers post I think I understand what's going on here. I didn't realize it was Cheri who was banned. I don't believe any of those currently so outraged ran to my defense when she censored and edited one of my posts just because she disagreed with the content.

So let's be honest here, it's not really about WHY someone was banned, people get banned from this forum all the time. It appears to really be about WHO was banned.





Country: | Posts: 219 Go to Top of Page

pilot
Forum Member

Posted - 10/04/2008 :  2:16:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A couple of observations...

1. Like resorts themselves, websites such as this are privately-operated and generally for-profit. The owners have final say over guest behaviors. Specifically, they can eject any guest whose behavior is found to be disruptive. Whether you or I find that behavior disruptive is immaterial. Other guests have a simple choice--stay or go elsewhere.

2. The notion of 'bashing' is an interesting one. There is certainly merit in asking posters to speak on the basis of personal experience and not hearsay (much less innuendo). Similarly, there is merit in asking people to be specific about what they did and didn't like about particular resorts and events. My sense, though, is that some members and posters are concerned that bashing has been defined selectively based on the particular resort(s) being discussed.

3. What seems to have stirred up this thread is not simply a comment by a (currently suspended) moderator suggesting "go here, don't bother with there or there" but rather a deeper ambivalence about nudism, sensuality and eros and the public/private dichotomy. Some organizations (AANR is the classic example) advocate for a strict barrier between public nudism and sensual enjoyment and erotic play. The 'litmus test' of what is acceptable is usually the "front lawn" test--would your activity be appropriate for the front lawn? If not, don't. The "front lawn" test is not quite perfect. For example, giving/receiving massages on a front lawn might raise an eyebrow or two. Other organizations --and this website is an organization of sorts--seem to support a softer barrier, suggesting that nudism somehow permits more intimate behaviors in a social context, and what is appropriate depends on consensus more than specific rules.



Country: | Posts: 294 Go to Top of Page

Admin
Forum Admin


Posted - 10/05/2008 :  02:54:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Oh, this would be the basis of another great thread. I'll try to bring it back on topic.

Pilot, I'm not seeing the 'litmus test' working in this context. It's not a rule we'd apply. For instance, in what neighborhood can you invite your friends over to stand around in the front yard naked?

Also, there are several behaviors that are common in textile nightclubs, including adult language, sexy dancing, and sharing alcoholic beverages that would not be welcome in most neighborhood front yards. So that analogy doesn't fit very well for me. Perhaps a public park would fit better, since a couple might very well be seen hugging and kissing on a park bench without so much as a raised eyebrow, but something that has the appearance of actual sex can require a call to law enforcement. That couple's behavior might be different if they were at a private nightclub, but it would still be limited.

It's really no different for nudists, unless you're one of those that run screaming like your hair is on fire whenever anyone starts acting like they would in the textile world.

We actually don't advocate regulating 'behavior' at all, beyond not disturbing other guests and staying within the house rules and public laws. As far as behavior, the local consensus is indeed important in this context.

I do hope people see that bashing has not been defined selectively. If there is another resort that has been bashed with unfair criticism but we are not defending them, please let us know.



Country: USA | Posts: 1888 Go to Top of Page

pilot
Forum Member

Posted - 10/05/2008 :  6:10:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One point was that 'litmus tests' are not terribly useful except when applied to specific behaviors. Taking matters out of the context of nudism, it's generally accepted that public threatening behaviors are illegal. However, one man's 'free speech' can be taken as another's 'threating behavior'. On the other hand, there is general agreement that pointing a firearm at another human being is specifically a threat.

The other point--perhaps a deeper one--is that many nudists tend to discuss eros and nudism in one of two typical ways. One way is create a barrier between nudism and eros, based on the argument that any 'rights' that might exist to social nudity will be threatened if behavior is ever different from Disney-squeaky-clean-G-rating. The other way is to suggest that social nudism is somehow more permissive for eros, and validates voyeurism and exhibitionism that would be risque' or even illegal in other contexts. I understand why each extreme has adherents. What is less clear is why there is such difficulty dealing with the appropriate time/place issues.



Country: | Posts: 294 Go to Top of Page

jim19452
Forum Member


Posted - 10/05/2008 :  10:30:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit jim19452's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FlCpl4NewdFun

quote:
Originally posted by jim19452

Wow, you are a sick. Everyone has the right to disagree. Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!

Best Wishes, Jim



Jim - It's obvious you disagree. But you may want to reconsider using Nazi metaphor's to express your position.

I'm quite sure Admin banning an individual from a message board he owns and operates doesn't rise to the level of genocide and ethnic cleansing of an entire group of people.

You do realize tens of millions of people may find such associations quite insensitive, insulting, and offensive.

Well enough on that.

After reading Tuffers post I think I understand what's going on here. I didn't realize it was Cheri who was banned. I don't believe any of those currently so outraged ran to my defense when she censored and edited one of my posts just because she disagreed with the content.

So let's be honest here, it's not really about WHY someone was banned, people get banned from this forum all the time. It appears to really be about WHO was banned.



I did not write one word in disagreement of removing Cheri as a moderator. Not one. I disagree with banning someone who has so much to offer.

This statement by Admin: "No member has a right to decide for all others whether a certain destination is right for them" is intellectually incompetent, represents a master/slave mentality, and discourages dissent. These were fundamental to Hitler. Again I say Sieg Heil.

I am a Libertarian. Admin has every right to dump me. I have every right to contest him and to not login on this site. If I so choose.

Best Wishes, Jim



Edited by - jim19452 on 10/07/2008 11:48:15 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 323 Go to Top of Page

Phydeau
Forum Member


Posted - 10/05/2008 :  10:44:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit Phydeau's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Might I suggest a thread specifically addressing (NEW, not old) the conflict of - - losing its AANR membership, the reasons (UP TO DATE, not old) why some members of NRO are upset about it, and SPECIFICALLY address why a site as prestigious as this in promoting a perfectly healthy and normal lifestyle continues to accept advertising revenue from the contended source, instead of BANNING influential and wonderful community members who have done more to promote nudism than almost anybody?

Please. Not to go Rodney King, here. But can't we all just get along?

Cheri is a MAJOR part of this site. No bullshit. Without A-E, all that's left is "F-U" before V-Z.

F-U

Seriously.




Country: USA | Posts: 214 Go to Top of Page

Admin
Forum Admin


Posted - 10/07/2008 :  1:00:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jim19452

I did not write one word in disagreement of removing Cheri as a moderator. Not one. I disagree with banning someone who has so much to offer.

You seem to be assuming the ban is permanent. Please read the first post again. A number of members are under temporary ban while I spend the personal time to remove posts that plainly are negative attacks while professing to be positive. We will remain vigilant to prevent any type of resort bashing in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by jim19452

This statement by Admin: "No member has a right to decide for all others whether a certain destination is right for them" is intellectually incompetent, represents a master/slave mentality, and discourages dissent. These were fundamental to Hitler. Again I say Sieg Heil.

We are enforcing the rule that dissent IS acceptable, if not used to unfairly attack or denigrate a resort destination or any person. Those that believe, for instance, that lifestylers are present but unnoticed at even traditional family resorts, should be able to express that idea without fear of covert censorship. We would not support such a dictatorship.

This forum is one of open ideas, if expressed without malicious intent, and with an adult perspective with regards to liability.

"No member has a right to decide for all others whether a certain destination is right for them" can be expressed with different words if that would help to clear this up.

Another way of saying this would be that since this forum was in part meant to explore and help clarify these difficult issues regarding sexuality in the nudism environment, anyone attempting to derail such discussions is working against our original intent. Also, the types of resorts we would allow to be represented here was decided before the creation of this website. That decision cannot be altered or changed by any member or moderator.

We have never chosen to restrict our support to the most traditional nudist resorts that cater only to families around the clock. We have enough of a view of the horizon to know that the nude recreation industry is much larger than those few destinations. Regardless of any adult theme or atmosphere, if a resort actively enforces the no open sex rule, provides a satisfactory nude vacation experience, and advertises without deception, it should be included in the SUN resort catalog. Anyone attempting to cast a negative light in order to deny this resort business that would be coming to them will be banned for a minimum of 30 days.

We have chosen to support both traditional family resorts and those that offer more for the adult within those guidelines. Any member that tries to decide for everyone else that the latter is not worth visiting is not welcome here, and is actively working against our original intent.

Jim, I'm thinking you may have really misunderstood what I said. I hope this clarification is helpful.



Country: USA | Posts: 1888 Go to Top of Page

Admin
Forum Admin


Posted - 10/07/2008 :  1:38:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phydeau

Might I suggest a thread specifically addressing (NEW, not old) the conflict of - - losing its AANR membership, the reasons (UP TO DATE, not old) why some members of NRO are upset about it, and SPECIFICALLY address why a site as prestigious as this in promoting a perfectly healthy and normal lifestyle continues to accept advertising revenue from the contended source, instead of BANNING influential and wonderful community members who have done more to promote nudism than almost anybody?
<...>
Cheri is a MAJOR part of this site. No bullshit. Without A-E, all that's left is "F-U" before V-Z.

I got a big laugh from the F-U thing, Phy, thank you! You are indeed a clever and humorous dude. I was wondering if I shouldn't start with G, because somebody would surely see that opening. LOL

Those are great suggestions for topics. It would help if everyone could express their thoughts on these issues.

Cheri is indeed a hard working advocate for purely 100% family friendly nudism. She is under a temporary ban for resort bashing, that's all. She has accomplished much for family nudism, but perhaps promotes a naivety that is a bit old fashioned. She's free to do that, but that is not our chosen policy.

The A-E folks, well, at least A-C are welcome and essential here. By their nature, some of these "pure" nudists need to have someone unclean at which to point that finger. They'll just have to learn to point it further down the alphabet if they want to post in this forum. We condemn breaking of the law (open sex at a nudist resort) and false advertising, which is what the W-Z folks are up to. Condemn that all day, we have no problem there, provided you don't start any lawsuits! Just be fair to those in the middle of the alphabet that are much better behaved and only want an atmosphere friendlier to adults when the kids are away.

Now, about those new topics...



Country: USA | Posts: 1888 Go to Top of Page

Admin
Forum Admin


Posted - 10/07/2008 :  3:06:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
New threads! See:

Conflict of - - losing its AANR membership

Are you upset that - - has left AANR?

Those first two are similar, please express your reasoning in the former, and your feelings in the latter, if possible.

Accept advertising revenue from contended sources?

Good suggestions, Phydeau.

Also, don't forget

Ask the hard questions for Admin


Now, to get back on topic. If you have questions specifically about our policy prohibiting resort bashing, you can post them in the thread you are now reading by clicking Reply to Topic.



Country: USA | Posts: 1888 Go to Top of Page

melissastarr
Forum Member


Posted - 10/09/2008 :  5:13:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit melissastarr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've been away in the hospital for a week, so I haven't been able to keep up with this thread. Sadly, I feel that I've come to some conclusion about what is permitted on this board and what isn't, based on what admin has said and responded to. It seems that as long as we support - - we're ok. If we have reason to dislike the resort and express that, it's not ok. Other resorts, of course, would likely be open to more opinionated posts, but not - -. And for obvious reasons: - - is a major (if not the ONLY) financial supporter of this site. This is America, capitalism is alive and well, and a website has to support those who pay for it.

Sadly, in my eyes, what is being supported and not supported is very sad. To ban those who are for family-friendly nudism, who fight for family-friendly nudism, and who encourage people to check out resorts that are family-appropriate seems very sad and quite ridiculous to me. I've read the questionable post over and over and over again and the only conclusion that I can make is a reminder that this site is supported by - - and isn't an advocate of family-friendly nudism.

That said, I'm not sure I can support a site like this. I am not the most conservative person on the planet, that's for sure, but I guess maybe I'm too conservative for this site. Who knows? I'm not sure I want to support and be a part of a site that so strongly promotes a club that I wouldn't recommend to any of my family members and one who bans people for wanting to help people find a positive environment for their families. So I'm just not sure I want to come to this site any longer. I'll really have to think about that. In the meantime, I will continue to visit sites that I know are safe for me and my family.

Melissa

___________________________________________________________________
"Be who you are and say how you feel because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter" -Dr. Seuss



Country: USA | Posts: 883 Go to Top of Page

Admin
Forum Admin


Posted - 10/09/2008 :  11:27:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good luck, Melissa. You are attempting to demonize this organization, as though we have something against family nudism.

What part of "non-specific criticism" do you not understand?

The questionable post you refer to was immediately deleted. So how are you able to read it over and over?

In this deleted post the couple (not family) wanted information about the two largest resorts in Tampa. They were told to go to Orlando instead, thereby diverting business away from the couple's intended destination.

Our action was not based on one post, but a series of them stretching over several years, despite numerous email and phone conversations wherein we were assured the bashing would stop.

The temporary bans were due to expire at the end of this month, but your NRO bashing and entirely twisted and inaccurate post has us reconsidering the wisdom of this. Those bans will be extended until the NRO bashing ceases from personal friends of the banned members.

Melissa, you are banned permanently ['indefinitely' is her current status - Admin]. This malicious post was entirely uncalled for, and you are only causing more problems for your friends. If you want to respond, go and do it in some other forum.

If anyone would like to defend Melissa, please explain how any part of her post is accurate and fair.

For the record, SUN supports family nudism. We are choosing an appropriate family-only resort for our next inclusion in the SUN Resort Showcase. We intend to do more for family nudism than other organizations ever attempted.

We support those that promote family nudism as long as the method of supporting family nudism does not consist solely of demonizing those destinations that also cater to adults as well as families.

Criticism of any resort, including - -, is welcome IF that criticism is specific, balanced and fair, and you've actually been there in person. General smears and hearsay will not be permitted, and those that refuse to understand this will not be allowed to remain.

Being an outspoken advocate of family nudism does not exempt anyone from following these posting rules.



Country: USA | Posts: 1888 Go to Top of Page

johninfla
Forum Member

Posted - 10/09/2008 :  11:51:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I probably shouldn't get into this, especially since I missed whatever transpired.

I gather what the admin is trying to do is encourage honest, straightforward trip reports by people who have actually been to the various resorts while strongly discouraging the postings by those who have never actually been there and are just spouting off according to their own personal agenda. I strongly applaud that effort.

Secondly, if you think the admin is getting rich off this, think harder. I don't personally know him or his circumstances, but based on my experiences as a sysop, even back before Al Gore invented the internet, I'd bet he isn't even covering the server costs. Not remotely.

Thirdly, and this goes back to the old days; think of the forums as sitting around the admin's living room discussing things. In that context there's no such thing as a First Amendment other than that everyone is free to start their own website/forums if they choose. It's his house, and users are expected to abide by the house rules.

It's pretty simple.



Country: | Posts: 24 Go to Top of Page

pc1961
Forum Member

Posted - 10/10/2008 :  11:37:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been a mostly a reader for a couple of years. I rarely post but do so now and await my own banning. I have never met Cheri or Melissa or anyone else on these boards.

"Melissa, you are banned permanently. This malicious post was entirely uncalled for, and you are only causing more problems for your friends. If you want to respond, go and do it in some other forum."

While you may not like Melissa's post, it struck me as a thoughtful, measured examination of her feelings. There was no malice. There was no resort bashing. If you find her post malicious and threatening, I would make an early appointment with your doctor to discuss available paranoia medications or counseling to address your delusions of grandeur.

Sincerely,
Paul



Country: USA | Posts: 46 Go to Top of Page

Pat
Forum Member

Posted - 10/10/2008 :  12:19:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I miss seeing Cheri's posts here. Reading what she has to say is a good deal of the reason I keep comming back.

Lift the ban on Cheri.

Pat



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