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thornapplebison
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Posted - 05/31/2009 : 12:32:15 AM
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Obviously, breastfeeding is natural. We're mammals. That's not the issue.
The issue is whether or not it should be done in public. That's a question of etiquette. Etiquette forbids things like two people whispering together while sitting at a table with others. Why?
Because it creates a division, where two of the people at the table are sharing a different moment than what the rest of the people at the table are sharing.
Breastfeeding, I've been told, is a beautiful bonding experience between mother and child. Especially if I am not related to them, I would feel undeservedly over-privileged to be thrust into such a moment. A woman is not a cow. The process of getting and giving milk should have an emotional component for both mother and child. That emotional component is nothing I can share. Whatever had been going on around the table would and should instantly change in the glow of that moment.
That's a breach of etiquette. I would much prefer the mother take her child to a private place. But even the awkwardness of witnessing such a beautiful and private moment would be preferable to watching a woman treat herself as if she were a cow-- giving milk as a purely biological function, without any special emotional significance. I would be humiliated for her in such a situation.
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nudeisbetter
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Posted - 06/02/2009 : 11:09:29 AM
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Thornapple, if the woman wants to feed her child, just let her. This is about her, not you.
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 06/02/2009 : 6:14:03 PM
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If we're in a group, it's not about any of us, it's about all of us. If she needs a moment that will be just about her and her child, then she should find an appropriately private and quiet place. If I need to discuss something personal with my wife, I'm not going to drop out of a group conversation and start whispering in her ear. Or, if I feel particularly affectionate towards her, I'm not going to just stop talking to the group and start making out with her. Special moments deserve special attention. Not everything should be reduced to a public display.
My concern is not for my tender eyes that can't witness any mammalian processes. My concern is that all the courtesy, gentility and reverence is passing out of our society.
Some people on this forum have advocated unisex bathrooms without stalls, too. And, of course, there are swingers (or even people who don't swap partners) who want to have others looking on when making love to their spouses. I'm not sure what motivates this kind of thinking. Ok, we like to get naked and socialize and enjoy the great outdoors together. But does that mean that nothing can be private or (I'm going to have to resort to a German word because I can't think of an English equivalent) heilige? (It means holy, or sacred...but it doesn't necessarily mean that in a religious sense...special...but that's not quite it, either.)
We are animals, yes. But we can be so much more. All the artiface, all the care, all the courtesy and thoughtfulness that most people now seem to take for being 'fake' are what lift us above the animal, what sublimate these moments of our lives. If we lose that, and fail to pass that on to our children, our grandchildren will look on at the great artistic and cultural achievements of the past with no understanding and probably not even any admiration. It will be one of the greatest losses in human history, on par with the onset of the dark ages.
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 06/02/2009 : 6:18:07 PM
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Alright. I got carried away. Nursing a child in public will obviously not cause a new dark age. However, even the fact that there is a debate here is a sign of changes in our culture that I find very disturbing and dangerous.
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Safebare
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 Posted - 06/05/2009 : 4:48:05 PM
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I would like to hear the changes in our culture that you find very disturbing and dangerous. I do agree that breastfeeding is a personal expression that should not be flaunted, kinda like kissing or sharing a personal conversation. It is not akin to sex. I am not offended by the sight of a couple kissing or sharing a personal conversation, but it would be rude to engage in those behaviors in a group setting. But, it does not need to be relegated to a 'private room'. This is rude to the mom and child. If the group is intimate, such as a family or close friends, then why not?
I, for one, prefer the movement away from the puritan culture of Ozzie and Harriet, where married couples could not even admit to sharing a bed in public. This is not a slippery slope to Caligula.
"Wearing nothing is devine, naked is a state of mind."
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 06/05/2009 : 5:31:20 PM
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Safe, it's never rude to expect people to respect themselves and others. I suppose one of the changes I'm talking about is that many people have begun to equate a desire for privacy with shame. Another is that many people have begun to confuse pride with exhibitionism.
If the setting includes only family and friends that are as close as family, then that is private. The question here concerns public display.
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Warmskin
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Posted - 06/05/2009 : 5:52:22 PM
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If a mother is strutting around and in a restaurant and acting as if to say -- Watch me breastfeed my baby, everyone!! -- that would be one thing. Just unassumingly and without fanfare, breastfeeding is quite another. I have seen friends, in the past, breastfeed right out in the open around family and friends, and it was no big deal, and these were conservative people. I was comfortable with it, because the mom was. No one forced her to do this, and so why should I object.
In an earlier post in this thread, I sarcastically said that people should not be allowed to eat in a restaurant or other public places because they are being exhibitionists in showing the beginning portion of their digestive tract.
I don't see much difference between a nipple and a pair of lips taking in food. Cannot life be a little natural now and then, or must we be permanently in denial of our natural humanity? We're not potted plants or machines; we are people who are natural forms of life. We are the only life form who is ashamed of our body. Isn't that weird, when you think about it? How many life forms are there on this earth? Hundreds of thousands, millions? I don't know, but only one type of life form is schizophrenic enough to think we can never be seen as we naturally are, or that we have to be ashamed of our own body 24/7, is not healthy.
Think about it when it comes to breastfeeding. Only one life form has a problem with themselves, the rest of each and every other life form is fine with life as it is. We need inner reconciliation with who we are. So, three cheers for all mothers who breastfeed wherever they are, as long as that breastfeeding is matter-of-factly done.
“In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.” -John Adams
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 06/05/2009 : 7:47:17 PM
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Warmskin, it seems unlikely to me that you even read any of my posts. This discussion is not about a woman breastfeeding her baby in a private situation, such as with family or very close friends nearby.
However, you demonstrated the slippery slope that Safe said isn't here when you moved in the course of your post from defending the idea of breastfeeding in private to celebrating matter-of-factly done (whatever that means) breastfeeding wherever a woman may be.
I will say again that a woman is not a cow. Breastfeeding is not merely a biological process, and I would be embarrassed for any woman who treated herself as if it was.
There is a difference between the natural and the debased. Debased behavior is necessarily natural-- but it is lacking any of the spiritual and emotional refinements that separate humans from animals. I am not saying that there's anything to be ashamed of-- just the opposite. I'm saying that breastfeeding is an intimate moment that deserves to be elevated above the level of public display.
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Edited by - thornapplebison on 06/05/2009 7:59:55 PM |
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old hippie
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Posted - 06/05/2009 : 9:35:02 PM
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Thorn, you are right that a certain level of propriety and respect should be observed in a public setting. This does not prevent a mother from nursing her child, though; it simply demands a bit of discretion. When I was a younger person (ages ago, in the 50's) and my parents had the good fortune to enjoy many children younger than me, my mother was comfortable nursing my siblings in numerous settings ranging from home to railroad cars. She would easily throw a small blanket or a towel over her shoulder, maybe sit quietly off to the side. No one questioned her activity ( it was widely recognized and universally accepted), and no one seemed bothered. The baby was quieted, and life went on.
But I think part of that was the easy acceptance of the times. Kids went skinny-dipping in the river, parents were in charge of the home, and gas was $0.22/gal. I think things have changed a bit. Now everyone seems ready to take offense at any small slight, and we are all edgy about the chance of incurring such wrath. Makes for a less friendly society, I think, but I have no illusion of changing it.
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
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Warmskin
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Posted - 06/05/2009 : 9:56:17 PM
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I'm speaking from perhaps a more ethereal vantage point that is oddly joined at the hip with the more earthy.
I don't conceive that breastfeeding is on par with using a bathroom, or taking a shower, or partaking in sex. What I am driving at is how uncomfortable the general public is with a baby being fed naturally. Is not your act of eating food at a restaurant rather intimate? I am not considering what the public thinks in this specific concept. Whether it's a baby or an adult, it's imbibing nourishment. Whether it's from a nipple, or the end of a fork, does anybody really stare at either an adult eating, or a baby being fed? Isn't that rude of somebody to stare at a person who is eating.
Perhaps we could agree that changing a diaper on a restaurant table is not a good thing to do. However the point of contention is not about excrement, but rather drinking a fluid, which the rest of the restaurant customers are doing.
While the public may be excessively antsy about a non-sexual or non-excremental activity in regards to a baby being fed, I find it to be a clean, wholesome activity, that is perhaps as neat or neater, as watching a guy slobbering while trying to down a long string of spaghetti, and getting sauce all over his shirt.
I'd feel much more comfortable with watching a baby being nursed naturally than watch a guy drinking one beer after another, and then start to belch. Yet, people would feel less offended by the beer drinking belcher. A lot of people would laugh at the beer drinker, but shriek with horror as a baby drink some mother's milk. Is there something wrong here? As one man said, (I think H.L. Mencken)"No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American people."
I don't want to get too far down on my fellow citizens, but I wish we Americans would be a little more graceful about life. If they were, nudism would be more commonplace. We are great at invention, productivity, working all year around, but we have so much to learn about being comfortable with our body. Compare and contrast us with Europeans. Americans are still mired down by the rather late Queen Victoria, with all her strange and bizarre views of the human body. Americans seem to be, on the whole, quite antiseptic about being human.
“In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.” -John Adams
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nakeddan
New Member
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Posted - 06/06/2009 : 6:30:08 PM
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Even at Disneyland there is an unofficial breast feeding park area right next to the haunted mansion attraction. My wife breastfed both of our kids there when they where infants in the '80 and '90s. It is totally natural and, in California, a woman's right to breastfeed her child is protected by law -- just as it ought to be.
What is wrong with people?
Stay naked!
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 06/06/2009 : 7:51:25 PM
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So, then, most of you seem to advocate that a woman at a nudist resort, in a public setting, when her baby is hungry, should simply lift the child and bring him to her breast? And the rest of us should just continue the conversation without missing a beat?
Would you have her chewing some grass at the same time?
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old hippie
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Posted - 06/07/2009 : 12:16:52 AM
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"continue the conversation" ? ....Um, yeah. If mother is comfortable with that (and I can't imagine why not, at a nudist resort), I have no problem either. As Warmskin says, the kid is just having lunch. Now, you may feel neglected at being outside looking in, and feel left out of this deep bonding experience that you are reading into the occasion; but for as much as I can tell (never having been a mother) the kid is having lunch. It's a very natural act, and as a naturist I find it completely normal.
I'm really not clear where this "chewing grass" aspect comes in - -humans are omnivore mammals, not ruminants; we are not equipped to derive nutrition from grass very efficiently.
Dum vivimus, vivamus!
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Edited by - old hippie on 06/07/2009 12:18:14 AM |
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Warmskin
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Posted - 06/07/2009 : 04:47:06 AM
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Another facet this interesting discussion might be what is preferable -- violence or the human body. We are comfortable watching all sorts of gratuitous violence, but we cringe at seeing a woman breast-feed her baby. It's an upside down world.
I'm not saying there is no controversy with this topic, but the premise that breast-feeding, in that many people say must be hidden, is on par with relieving yourself in the restroom is simply something I can't agree to, even though I know honorable people will disagree.
Perhaps we have all seen and heard sloppy eaters. I would surely place them below the dignity of a nursing child in public. Imagine a sloppy eater in a cafe, who makes loud noises while he eats. Poor mannered as this hypothetical man is, he then belches with muffling himself. We would all agree that man is uncouth, but he would still not be in any violation that would have him banned at the cafe.
Conversely, we have a hypothetical woman who breast-feeds her very hungry baby in the booth next to the rude man's booth. The woman is a humble person. She does not seek to inflame anyone. She quietly feeds her hungry baby while she is waiting for her meal.
Which of these is the most obnoxious? I would say the man is. He is rude and obnoxious. The woman is doing what is lovely and natural.
It would be my contention that we as a people are uncomfortable with our human nature. We would prefer raw, gratuitous violence, or an obnoxious eater at a local cafe, to maybe seeing a human breast.
Why are we the only mammal type life form to have this problem and who brought it on? Somewhere, there was a disconnect between normality and an unhealthy regard for a woman in her natural function. Meanwhile our critter friends have no such odd feelings about it all.
I cannot even find a spiritual reason for this anomaly in Christianity, which is the majority religion in America. Can anyone in the Christian faith imagine Jesus rebuking a woman who is breast-feeding? I can not, for one. I can understand that someone might object to my usage of his name. What I am trying to do is find the origin of the seeming ban of breast-feeding in public. If I were more of a sociologist, perhaps, I would know. Lots of times, religions can be the source of things like this, but I am going back to the roots of the teachings of my own religion and cannot find anything close to this banning motive.
I guess I've said enough in this one post. 
“In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.” -John Adams
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thornapplebison
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Posted - 06/07/2009 : 05:39:02 AM
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Alright. This has become very creepy. A bunch of guys sitting around debating the merits of a woman breastfeeding her child in a public setting, especially when most of them seem to be debasing the act into, "a kid having lunch," is just grotesque. I've stated my opinion and have nothing more to say on it, other than to express my suspicion that some people on the internet might be getting their rocks off on thinking about this, and I'm not going to help them out with that anymore.
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breastfeeding in public
