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CopperQuail
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Posted - 07/06/2007 : 09:43:25 AM
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I still say the middle ground is: If you want to have the freedom to run around erect then organize a club where it is okay. If you want to restrict erections then put it in the rules and enforce it. Just as long as everyone knows what to expect when they come in the gate.
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Sally
Forum Member
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 Posted - 07/12/2007 : 6:24:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Knight
<Snip>
Is this the kind of environment you wish for your granny and young children?
<Snip>
Pete Knight
Pete,
The above statement that you have made on more then one occasion has been bothering me. Nudism is about body acceptance, right? If so do YOU really want there to be more children who grow up in an environment where they are afraid of how their body is going to react to various stimulus?
Also think about it like this, IF the children in question are young enough, say newborn to 3rd or 4th grade they won’t even know what an erection is. So how are they being harmed by seeing some man walking by the pool, on the beach, or in the woods or field with an erection? Middle/Junior High on they’ll know what an erection is and will probably just look away themselves. Again as far as the small children are concerned they typically respond and react the way that the adults around them react or have trained them to react. And lets also not forget that parents should be teaching their children about their bodies in language that is age appropriate so that if someone tries to hurt them they can protect themselves.
A good example of this would be if mommy or daddy are afraid of a particular breed of dog and act all scared and nervous when they see it. Their children will pick up on this and will likely themselves end up being scared and nervous when they see that particular breed as well.
How we act and react to situations is how our children will act and react to those same situations. Think back to when Ms Jackson had her breast bared on national TV during the Super Bowl, one of the arguments for fining her, her singing partner and the TV networks for airing it is because it somehow “hurt” the children who saw it.
I would like to know HOW they were hurt by seeing her bare breast? Showtime has a series called Penn and Teller’s Bulls*(t. This season they did a show on breast hysteria. They had a lawyer who wants to have a law passed making it illegal for nursing mothers to breastfeed in public. She also made the statement that a child seeing a woman’s bare breast in public is as damaging to them as if they had sex with an adult. She also went on to say how that if a woman in NY went shirtless she could be arrested and jailed for 15-days. Clearly showing that she has no idea of the revision in the law allowing women to go shirtless anywhere that a man can.
As for grandmothers as I said before my grandmother (actually both of them) have raised several sons so I am sure that she/they have seen them at one time or another with an erection and it hasn’t had any negative effect on her.
My maternal grandmother’s family was also nudists and had been for a couple of generations, and it is/was her farm that we lived and grew up on when we were kids. My paternal grandmother’s family weren’t nudists per say, but they weren’t prudes either. With my paternal grandmother being something of the black sheep of the family. I have heard it said at family reunions, although I do not know how true it is or was, I mean we all know how things get blown out of proportion at family reunions.
That she got caught by her parents while not only skinny dipping with her friends but that she and her friends were engaged in something of an orgy, as well. Again I don’t know how true it is, but I do know that she has always been one of the freer people that I have known in my entire life. So it is very possible that some of the stories I have heard about her over the years are true.
And both of them would be offended at the thought that they like children in general need to be protected from the sight of a man with an erection.
I remember I think the first time that I saw an erection I was hiding behind a tree watching either my brother or cousin from behind a tree to see what they were doing or what was wrong. When I heard a twig break behind me, I turned to see one of my grandmother’s approach me and I turned all red at being caught doing something that I thought was wrong. Upon seeing that I was embarrassed at getting caught she wanted to know what I was doing to be so embarrassed over. I couldn’t talk, so I just pointed, she looked around the tree, and then let out a laugh that really scared me because I thought that she was going to be mad at me.
She sat me down and explained that my brother or cousin as I said I can’t remember which it was now. Simply had an erection and that there was nothing wrong with him. And that it was a very natural thing for boys and men to have. She also explained to me that sometimes when boys and men have an erection that they like to play with it, I can’t remember the exact words she used, but I think it was something along those lines. She also explained to me that lots of times when a boy or a man has an erection that they also like to play with girls or women or sometimes other boys or men as well. And that as I got older I would understand better about what I had seen that day, and she was right, with her help and explanations I understand what had happened not only that day but others as other little brothers and cousins also had an erection. Thanks to my grandmother I was never embarrassed to see one of my brothers or cousins or uncles or even my father when they had an erection.
Had she not done that I might have the same reaction and outlook on erections that you do. I am glad that not only my grandmother(s) but whole family were as open minded as they were when I was a little girl. And even though I grew up at a time when “good girls didn’t have sex” I did know of several girls from school who had got “caught in the family way” and had “gone away” for a spell. I am proud to say that that had never happened to myself, my sisters or any of my female cousins.
Also as I have said, you are using the exact same argument that textiles use to say how nudists are and behave is wrong. Just substitute nudist for erection and you will see what I am saying.
Sally
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Sally
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/12/2007 : 6:38:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by OLD BUZZARD
pete
i don’t think you understand what sally or herman or i is saying. we do not support flaunting or parading a erection. it seems like its either far left or far right, no middle ground at all. so as long as nobody is willing to think things out you will ever salve any thing.
i still think that a person should be judged by his actions with an erection and what he does with it. not the actual erection. you should not lump all erections into the same barrel. I also have a penis and know about how it works.
lets all try to work together on this issue. sally was not saying that its ok to flaunt it or display it for all to see. if a person is being discrete about leave him alone, all i said is that i don’t feel that a person should not have to cover up if being discreet with it. that is all, other wise all other rules apply. he doesn’t want it in the first place, so leave him alone and it will take care of itself in a short time. enough said!!!!!!!
old buzzard
Old Buzzard,
Very well said, and that is what as you said you, myself and Herman have been trying to say. Let’s recognize that erections as well as other signs of arousal happen and let’s judge the people on how they act and behave.
And not because their bodies have responded to some form of environmental stimulation. And as long as they are not flaunting it, or are openly masturbating or engaging in some for of sexual intercourse with another person. Then what is the big deal?
As to lump all erections into the same barrel as you put it is wrong because we are not mind readers and we don’t know that the person with an erection is thinking sexual thoughts or not. So let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and judge them not because they have an erection, but on how they act.
Thank you, that is exactly what I have been trying to say. It is their actions that a person should be judged on, not on how their body has responded to this or that stimulus.
Sally
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Sally
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/12/2007 : 6:52:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Knight
Yes but Sally kept going around in circles, covering points she had already raised and I had answered.
I do understand, and accept that erections are natural, but to change naturist etiquette to allow erections is asking for trouble, a point I tried to make, but which was not accepted, the only acceptable rule is the one that currently stands. I pointed out that men with erections on beaches are pests who annoy other beach users and get beaches closed down, and you want me to be understanding of them?
I accept that erections may occur, why can’t you accept naturist etiquette and use some discretion.
That’s all I’m going to say on the subject, if you want to try your way of doing it, then be my guest and see how many people get upset about it.
Pete Knight
Pete,
If I keep going around in circles it is because you too keep going around in circles. You admit that erections can and do occur for reasons other then sex related reasons. And saying that overt signs of sexuality are not tolerated, yet you keep lumping ALL erections as being sexual in nature. When by your own admission they are not all sexuaul in nature. Isn’t that contradicting yourself?
You also make statements such as:
quote:
I pointed out that men with erections on beaches are pests who annoy other beach users and get beaches closed down, and you want me to be understanding of them?
Saying or implying that all men who have erections walk around flaunting and showing them off to everyone they meet. Do you have any real documented proof that all men walk up and down the beach flaunting or showing off their erections? I think that as Old Buzzard has said most would rather sit or lay on their towel enjoy the sun and wait for it to pass before doing anything else.
Yes, sadly there are those who will flaunt or show off their erections and they are the ones who are making it hard (no pun intended) for those who just happened to have an erection to be accepted.
Let’s work on educating the flaunters that their behavior is wrong and leave the men who are trying to be discreet alone. Is that asking for too much?
I have a friend who models for drawing classes, sometimes when he is doing a sitting he will get an erection. He will tell the class before hand that it may happen. So far to the best of my knowledge no one has ever freaked out and accused him of flaunting it. But according to some of you here I’m sure that he is wrong for not stopping the class until it goes away. And I am sure that he would also get a big laugh out of this thread.
Sally
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Pete Knight
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/13/2007 : 03:10:49 AM
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What is a Troll?
An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord ... Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; … ; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. ... trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Why Does it Matter?
… It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do not post), may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and thus never get involved.
Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this beautiful forum for ideas.
What Can be Done about Trolls?
When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they usually calm down.
However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective … way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. Embarassed When you scream at a troll, he wins.
The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored. Very Happy
What Not to Do
As already stated, it is futile to try to "cure" a troll of his obsession. But perhaps you simply cannot bear the hostile environment that the troll is creating and want to go away for a while.
If you do that, then for the sake of the others on the [forum], please do not post a dramatic "Goodbye!" message. This convinces the troll that he is winning the battle. There is, perhaps, no message you can write on a message system that is as damaging as an announcement that you are leaving because of the hostility that the troll has kindled.
If you feel you must say something, a discreet message to the system operator (and some of the others users, if you have their email addresses) is the best course of action. Incidentally, if you are writing the letter in an agitated state, it is a good idea to wait an hour and then give it one last review before you actually send it. That might spare you the pain of saying things that you don't really mean to people you like.
The Webmaster's Challenge
…
The moderator of a message board may not be able to delete a troll's messages right away, but their job is made much harder if they also have to read numerous replies to trolls. They are also forced to decide whether or not to delete posts from well-meaning folks which have the unintended effect of encouraging the troll.
Some webmasters have to endure conscientious users telling them that they are "acting like dictators" and should never delete a single message. These people may be misinformed … Please remember that a troll does have an alternative if he has something of value to say: there are services on the net that provide messaging systems free of charge. So the troll can set up his own message board, where he can make his own decisions about the kind of content he will tolerate.
Just how much can we expect of a webmaster when it comes to preserving the principles of free speech? Some trolls find sport in determining what the breaking point is for a particular message board operator. …
Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one — himself.
What about free speech?
When trolls find that their efforts are being successfully resisted, they often complain that their right to free speech is being infringed. Let us examine that claim.
While most people on the Internet are ardent defenders of free speech, it is not an absolute right; there are practical limitations. For example, you may not scream out "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you may not make jokes about bombs while waiting to board an airplane. We accept these limitations because we recognize that they serve a greater good.
…
When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize.
The ultimate response to the 'free speech' argument is this: while we may have the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say it wherever we want. You may feel strongly about the fact that your neighbour has not mowed his lawn for two months, but you do not have the right to berate him in his own living room. Similarly, if a webmaster tells a troll that he is not welcome, the troll has no "right" to remain. This is particularly true on the numerous free communications services offered on the net.
Why Do They Do It?
Affirmation. Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value — and that can be a very satisfying emotional reward.
Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative. They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic rapture.
If you want a deeper analysis than that, perhaps a psychologist can shed some additional light on the matter.
Conclusion
Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody who you think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
By posting such a message, you let the troll know that you know what he is, and that you are not going to get dragged into his twisted little hobby.
The Internet is a splendidly haphazard collection of both serious and silly material. Because it is so free, there are bound to be problems. I think that we can best enjoy it if we deal with everything that happens online with a wry grin and a ready shrug.
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CMx2
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/13/2007 : 05:23:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete Knight
The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.
+1
I will repeat the recommendation that everyone stops arguing with the pro-boner guys. You're trying to use logic and common sense.
Unfortunately, this is totally useless because they have an agenda and will never deter from it.
Yes, their arguments are narrow minded and easily refuted but rather than concede defeat, they prefer to do their own version of Abbot and Costello's Who's on first routine by twisting facts and going in circles in a poor attempt to confuse the issue.
If you feel you must reply to some outrageous comment (maybe so that new visitors to this forum don't think that the offensive poster's opinion is considered the norm in the nudist community) then it may be better to respond to the topic of the outrageous post rather than to the poster so that you don't get caught up in their routine.
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Edited by - CMx2 on 07/13/2007 06:44:22 AM |
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b4dger
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Posted - 07/13/2007 : 07:24:39 AM
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Couldn't agree more CMx2. In this game there are no winners..... lets call it a draw!
Spread the word.. nude is best. Bob..
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mugwert
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Posted - 07/13/2007 : 10:11:06 AM
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Well, sometimes it just happens, you just have to be discrete about it, just like in JR high, cover it with a book or a towel and wait for it to go away.
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Nightforce
Forum Member
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Posted - 07/13/2007 : 10:26:00 AM
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I hate to blow on the tinder by posting in this topic but this issue really concerns me. I'm currently only exploring this lifestyle (I guess more appropriately considering actually being nude in the presence of strangers as I enjoy being nude at home) and know that I'll likely have this issue the first few times I'm actually standing in the presence of other nude people. It's not, in my mind, going to be a sexually excited response but more a liberating excited response. I have confidence issues, so much so that I fear going to a doctor, even though I know they have seen thousands of naked people as well as problems urinating in a public facility if anyone is present. For me, once I can overcome these fears I'm sure I'll be "cured" so to speak of some of these issues, but initially, I'm sure the excitement and conflicting emotions will manifest themselves in a socially unacceptable way. I'm not a 'pro-erection' person per se and I agree to a certain extent that erections can be somewhat controlled but some of us (as everyone is different) have the response for "no reason" and cannot control it. For example, the other night, exploring nudism, I decided to sit on my deck nude while sipping some rum. There was no one around to be an exhibitionist for so nothing sexual there, it was nearly pitch black and around 11 PM so the likelyhood of someone seeing me was about zero therefore no excitement of the possible 'discovery' of my nude condition, and I wasn't thinking of the slightest thing sexual, i.e. no reason to have an erection at all, however, just being nude in the warm evening breeze with the stars out must have sparked something as I got a partial erection.
This really concerns me if I decide to visit a nude facility. I'm certainly NOT going to walk around with a full on erection and plan to do as suggested, sit down, cover up, etc. However, I certainly don't want to be kicked out of a place for inappropriateness should I not be able to adequately hide my condition.
Chance favors the prepared mind. - Louis Pasteur
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StuffedTiger
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Posted - 07/14/2007 : 01:25:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sally ... Nudism is about body acceptance, right? If so do YOU really want there to be more children who grow up in an environment where they are afraid of how their body is going to react to various stimulus?
They need to learn not to piss in the pool, cough or sneeze in other people's faces and sit down or cover up with a towel if they have an erection. They learn these things by example if they have thoughtful, caring adults around.
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Rodders
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Posted - 07/14/2007 : 10:19:19 AM
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Hi, can somebody out there help me here. I've been a naturist for almost all my life and taken holidays in Europe & the Caribbean & spent days on English beaches and at our local club. During that time, I've seldom seen any erections, not that I keep a log on such trivia. I saw two "proud" chaps on Orient Beach, St Martin last October, very proud indeed of their erect members getting more of an amused response from those who noticed than shock horror or heaven forbid, admiration. Once in Croatia, a poor man who ran into the sea ASAP and I suppose others but I really don't recall. Is it such a big issue? Are more overt erections taking place in some areas rather than others? It is a really big topic in this forum and thus I suppose, a rising problem(pun only slightly intended). I've been away from the forum for a while and now with 56 pages, erections are of great concern & interest to a lot of you folks. Anyway just how common (in a nudist setting) are they?
Rod
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7ricco
New Member
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Posted - 07/14/2007 : 11:14:21 AM
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You read my mind. I have only been a naturist (nudist) for about 5 years and I don't recall ever seeing an erection at any naturist outings/clubs. Just a hunch but I'll bet if you took a wide survey on the subject of erections that the so called debate on this issue would change its tune, if you catch my drift... On another note about hard female nipples, I repeat that the same biochemistry is occuring in the female as occurs for male arrousal (erection), Humm? A happy naked day to all! Richie
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Nightforce
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Posted - 07/15/2007 : 9:45:34 PM
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As I will post in the first experience thread later(EDIT: Thought there was a thread for this but I can't find it) I officially shed the biases of society (and clothing) and have some genuine concerns now as well as being somewhat confused. Today I went boating and shed my clothes soon after departing the dock...they didn't return for four hours until I was on my way in. Either I'm the youngest most virile member of this forum or I have some issues. :| I can say it will most definitely be a while before I visit a nude beach or resort given that most people here have voiced their opinion that chubs are not a good thing to have whilst enjoying clothes free activities. For the first two hours I was 1/4 to full on and was trying NOT to be. Something about the wind, sun, and experience of it all I guess. My wife was with me but we were not engaged in any type of arousing activity, i.e. (and not attempting to give TMI in this board of predominantly males) kicked back eating a PB&J sandwich sporting a 1/2 on chub. Now in perspective I certainly would not want to visit a beach/resort that was mostly male and better than half were flying half mast or better. Is this something that is completely normal for a while after going clothes free so late in life or do I have cause for concern???
Chance favors the prepared mind. - Louis Pasteur
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Edited by - Nightforce on 07/15/2007 10:33:13 PM |
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Raifa
New Member
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Posted - 07/16/2007 : 02:10:57 AM
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I've wondered about this issue myself, often...
This is part of why I havent gone to any such place yet;
Cause it's like, well, what if I DO get an erection?
If Im naked at home, or on the rarer occaisions, in one of the forests I like to walk in, I dont really get them randomly or anything, if I do it's very rare.
But if I go into one of these places, and Im nervous for being the first time there, how do I know I wont have that reaction? And what do I do if I DO get one? Do I carry a towel everywhere I go to cover it up or something?
Im probably worrying for nothing, but still...
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widowerman
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Posted - 07/16/2007 : 04:40:07 AM
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OK, here’s my last 2 cents about MALE AROUSAL
Once upon a time when I was a wee lad of near 4 decades ago we went on a class trip to the United Nations. As we were usher in to the main lobby all of us kids, boys and girls of the 4th grade were all excited to be in the UN building. This was also the time that the TV series The Man From U.N.C.L.E. was a big hit so that excited everyone even more so.
So imagine 40 -50 little tots, teachers and mothers who were chaperones all in the main lobby. And what to our amazement did we see? Was it Napoleon Solo? Some spy chase? Nope.
We saw the biggest grandest bronze statue we ever did see right smack damn in the middle of the huge lobby. It was a statue of a bearded man knelt down on one knee, a long pointed spear raised in his one hand poised to strike , his other arm was fully extended, pointing obviously at his target and of course the man was naked. He looked like some noble hunter ready to strike his prey on the order of a bronze Greek god. Ripped muscles, ripped abs, you get the picture.
The artist also had depicted the man in an aroused state, a very aroused state. In fact he had the biggest damn hardest erection you could ever imagine! There it was for the world to see, erect and pointed as was the spear.
Oh sure us kids giggled a bit, mothers tried to shield the children’s eyes as did the female teachers, but I strongly suspect that the females of the group were fascinated by the huge unabashed display of an erect male member. Hey, they are only human, let them look. It did not strike us blind, it did not make us go screaming into the night. It seemed ok for the UN so I guess it must have been ok for the world.
To this day I still do not understand what the artist was attempting to portray but like I said, it was no big deal for the UN at the time so why, pardon the pun, make a big deal out of a natural state today? Is this yet another subconscious reaction to penis envy?
Are we going to tell women that they may not have breast implants while at a nude resort? I’ve seen quite a few at a nudist beach, they too stand proud as well as erected even if they were augmented to do so.
I am mystified by it all.
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Where do you stand on Male Arousal?
