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nude charles
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Posted - 08/28/2012 : 8:32:19 PM
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And what is the mechanism/criteria by which a male is acceptable or a reject?
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Country: USA
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steady78
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Posted - 08/28/2012 : 10:01:06 PM
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Comon guys!! Are we really interested in putting more hurtles in front of a positive example of naturism.
Faulty Towers is showing naturism in a positve way to the textile world and gaining credibility for what we here on this site love!!
The vocal moral police would love nothing better than to get a story about sexual misconduct in this success story.
So, I hope we can all agree that to cast a discrimination shadow over this great success story will do nothing to help the cause of taking naturism out of the shadows and accepted by the mainstream.
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Country: Canada
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Bob Knows
Forum Member
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 Posted - 08/28/2012 : 11:33:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by steady78
Comon guys!! Are we really interested in putting more hurtles in front of a positive example of naturism.
Discrimination against men is not a "positive example" of much other than misandrist bigotry.
quote:
Faulty Towers is showing naturism in a positive way to the textile world and gaining credibility for what we here on this site love!!
Faulty Towers is showing that naturism and anti-men sexism go together. I don't call that "a positive way."
Several men on this site do not "love!!" anti-men sexist bigotry.
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Edited by - Bob Knows on 08/28/2012 11:35:21 PM |
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Country: USA
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steady78
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Posted - 08/29/2012 : 01:37:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Knows
quote:
Originally posted by steady78
Comon guys!! Are we really interested in putting more hurtles in front of a positive example of naturism.
Discrimination against men is not a "positive example" of much other than misandrist bigotry.
quote:
Faulty Towers is showing naturism in a positive way to the textile world and gaining credibility for what we here on this site love!!
Faulty Towers is showing that naturism and anti-men sexism go together. I don't call that "a positive way."
Several men on this site do not "love!!" anti-men sexist bigotry.
Well Bob, I agree there is an element of discrimination.
BUT, your posts on this topic are saying that this apparently struggling business should be forced to throw all caution out the door, just to protect your rights.
The only thing you're loosing out on with their rules is, having to choose not to visit this establishment.
Faulty Towers on the other hand, by removing these rules and possibly having an inappropriate incident occur, risks loosing their business and livelihood.
And let's take this one step further. IF, as you appear to think is only fair , all nudist clubs/resorts were forced to remove restrictions on males, and at one of these resorts an inappropriate incident occurs. Not only would that club/resort probably be destroyed, but, all nudist clubs/resorts would be tarred with the same brush.
Having seen the creeps and pervs at work on nude beaches, I would really be concerned about removing the only tool clubs and resorts have to keep them out.
I think I'm voicing the thoughts of the silent majority of naturists when I say, we don't want to risk loosing the few positive steps forward we've made over the years just to protect the rights of a few.
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Country: Canada
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Bob Knows
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Posted - 08/29/2012 : 08:14:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by steady78
BUT, your posts on this topic are saying that this apparently struggling business should be forced to throw all caution out the door, just to protect your rights.
What I am saying is that a hotel should obey the Civil Rights Law in the US and refrain from sexist discrimination based on race or sex.
Its not OK to flout the Civil Rights Law because they only violate the civil rights of men. Its offensive bigotry and illegal.
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Country: USA
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Carlover227
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Posted - 09/16/2012 : 10:30:46 PM
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Way to go Steady78! :)
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blavan
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Posted - 09/17/2012 : 09:21:22 AM
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Steady78 you are absolutey speaking for the silent majority. We should do all we can to help these owners.
Being Naked and Being Real
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TigerTiger
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Posted - 09/20/2012 : 01:45:27 AM
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Yes, let's ignore this one violation of civil rights because it's limited to this one hotel, or because we have sympathy for the hotel owners in these tough times, or because we don't mind that they're only going nudist for the money, or because like them you see that it'll still attract more guests than it would deny, or because the discrimination doesn't affect most people. Those are all awful reasons to ignore, much less support, such discrimination. I get that if you're not affected by it, you don't care, but don't think you also have a say in the matter.
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nudesunguy
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Posted - 09/20/2012 : 10:26:23 AM
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I believe the owners feel that in a small nudist venue like this allowing single men will eventually lead to a ratio of 85% men and 15% women, and then the women will feel uncomfortable and stop coming and you'll end up with 95% men, and then the men will stop coming because there are no women. And then the business will close.
For those who disagree, why not start your own nudist hotel and report back here on how it goes for you? If a place makes it clear they don't want your business, why not just go somewhere that does?
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 09/20/2012 : 1:06:39 PM
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Interesting, if insoluble, debate. The "Don't discriminate" side insists on their "rights" even though, as nudesunguy points out, unrestricted admission of unaccompanied men is likely not a viable business model for many resorts. If it were, there would be more resorts that allowed it. BobKnows and others have advocated lawsuits against resorts that don't allow unaccompanied men, but I seriously doubt that such a course would achieve the desired result. Resort owners know that an "open door" policy would quickly lead to an overwhelmingly male clientele. Once a resort becomes known as a Sausage Fest, so to speak, neither men nor women will care to attend, and the resort will fail. Ironically, the insistence on open doors would end up closing doors.
Admit it, you unaccompanied guys. You don't really want to go to a resort where it's 80-90% male, do you? You'd prefer something closer to gender balance ... just like the owners! If you were intellectually honest, your position would be "Impose a quota, but let ME in first."
BTW, I deliberately use the word "unaccompanied" rather than "single", since I suspect that a substantial percentage are in fact married men whose wives refuse to join them. Perhaps one reason the wives refuse to go along is that they don't wish to be surrounded and outnumbered by all the other married men whose wives refuse to join them!
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Bob Knows
Forum Member
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Posted - 09/20/2012 : 7:40:13 PM
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That's right, NaturistDoc, discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion, or national origin has been illegal in the US for almost half a century. Prior to that there were many arguments that allowing black customers into hotels and restaurants would drive out business and was "not a viable business model." Whether that was true or not can be debated, one need only look at Detroit, and compare with Atlanta. Whether a particular business has a viable business model that complies with the law is not the question. The law prohibits sexist discrimination against men in public accommodations such as hotels and restaurants. They need to revise their business model to operate in compliance with the Civil Rights Act.
Despite all you who argue against men having basic human rights, some of us men actually believe that men are people too.
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Edited by - Bob Knows on 09/20/2012 7:40:49 PM |
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 09/21/2012 : 01:19:08 AM
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So why haven't you sued the resorts, Bob? And why haven't all the other discontented men? You'd think with this level of resentment and sense of victimization the courts would be positively jammed with eager litigants. But they're not. Or if they are, it's sure being kept quiet. Since your position seems to be "business model be damned, so long as I have my rights", I can't for the life of me understand why you're confining your outrage to venues like this. After all, since you're not getting in now, why should you care if successful litigation causes a resort to close? You'd have your rights, by God ... even if there was no place left in which to exercise them.
I stand by the second paragraph in my previous post. Those who insist on an end to this 'discrimination' would be dismayed by the unintended consequences if they truly got their wish. It's a harsh paradox, but ignoring it won't advance the discussion.
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TigerTiger
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Posted - 09/24/2012 : 2:06:26 PM
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NaturistDoc, I go to nudist resorts to be nude, not to look at other people. You assume that the hotel would lose money until it closed down if it allowed single men, but I think it'd be more realistic to assume the hotel would have the same ratio as a nude beach. Nude beaches are an example of places where there's no discrimination against single men, and although most people there are men, it's not the extreme ratio you assumed, and it hasn't deterred women or families from enjoying nude beaches.
Obviously this level of discrimination doesn't compare to full segregation, since there are other places to choose from that don't discriminate. You might think it's hypocritical for me not to spend money trying to sue the hotel while expecting the hotel to lose money for my "selfish" demand, but I shouldn't have to spend money to be given a fair chance, to correct something that shouldn't be allowed in the first place. The hotel may spread nudism, but it exists to make money; they don't care about nudists so long as they can make money off of us. So why should I have any sympathy for them? But as long as the hotel's discrimination doesn't affect you, I guess it's okay, right?
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FlCpl4NewdFun
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Posted - 09/24/2012 : 7:20:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TigerTiger
Nude beaches are an example of places where there's no discrimination against single men, and although most people there are men, it's not the extreme ratio you assumed, and it hasn't deterred women or families from enjoying nude beaches.
You're kidding right? I've personally met numerous women who either don't go or are very timid about nude beaches because they are concerned about a sausage fest. Doesn't really matter if their concern is unfounded or not, it's the perception. That said, I actually think many women don't visit nude beaches these days because of camera phones and textile gawkers as opposed to being worried about single males.
With regard to gender policies I support that decision being left to the individual owners. My wife and I prefer to visit resorts that make an effort to maintain gender balance. For us personally it's just a more enjoyable social experience.
We've also been to places that don't restrict single males and didn't have much of an issue. In one case some guy followed us onto a nature trail. He was harmless, but it was still creepy. On another instance, we were at a club here in South Florida and my wife was one of the very few women there at the time (probably a good 8 to 1 ratio). Everyone was nice and polite and we struck up several conversations (yes with single men, even invited a fellow to join our table for lunch). However, when my wife went to go use the open bay outdoor showers (which were empty at the time) by the pool, wouldn't you know it, mysteriously 4 random men decided a good scrubbing in the shower would hit the spot. There were no rude gestures, comments, or behavior and I admit they had every right to be there. Still it was nevertheless really creepy timing. At the time, I actually remember feeling a bit sorry for them.
So all I'm saying is, as it relates to public clubs or resorts our personal preference is gender balance. In a private setting where we know all involved, gender balance is of no concern.
Cheers!
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NaturistDoc
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Posted - 09/24/2012 : 8:16:06 PM
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I'm not unsympathetic to the cause of the well-intentioned unaccompanied male nudist - and I freely acknowledge the existence of such creatures. They are no doubt unfairly lumped together with the men who DO go to resorts to look at other people, or worse. And as for "rights", I get it. But the Civil Rights Act was enacted to ensure that the customers at a "public accommodation" roughly reflect the public at large ... which, last time I checked, is approximately half female.
As I said before, it's an insoluble debate, as long as women, and especially unaccompanied women, remain a minority in the nudist/naturist community. I am fortunate indeed to have Ms. ND as a partner. Personally, I wouldn't visit a resort without her ... but that's just my bias.
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Fawlty Towers Motel in Cocoa Beach, FL
