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MrNatural
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 Posted - 08/15/2003 : 5:02:51 PM
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Great discussion. Thanks for being civil despite your obvious frustrations to communicate.
Reading your post of the beachgoers' reactions and interactions with you, it seems the impression made upon observers greatly colors the subjective experience. For instance, the "nice piece" comment, apparently from a rather brash beachgoer, perhaps trying to make a "pick up". And again, the attempted pickup from the gay side. These type of experiences when unwanted can be upsetting to even seasoned nudists. Perhaps visitors on that particular beach are more inclined to perceive a single male in a sexual context.
Have you tried a nude beach that is more crowded, and better managed? I would recommend Miami's nude Haulover Beach on Collins Ave in North Miami. Keep in mind, however, in any population of nudists you'll have all kinds of people, and some locations are better than others.
Regarding patching holes in belief systems, that's a very interesting idea. "What to do with an unwanted erection"... obviously we haven't worked this one out yet. It has a lot to do with the observer, and their reactions, accepting or not. When the "innocent" erection is perceived by an even more "innocent" person, the latter is sure to win in the court of public opinion, don't you think?
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azsosmooth
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Posted - 08/18/2003 : 10:32:33 AM
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Jeez folks I didn't realize so many people were offended by seeing an erection. Should women with erect nipples also run away to a secluded area or hide under a towel? Also a few of the comments mention "controlling erections" well quite frankly I wish I had the ability to simply turn on or off the hard switch but often it just happens and sometimes doesn't. What about the opposite, should we be complaining about shrinkage due to cold water. I'm willing to bet that if one takes any large group of males be they on a nude beach or dressed in a suit and tie, a certain percentage will have erections. It never ceases to amaze me that Americans have such hangups regarding a natural process, on a European nude beach the only thing one would hear regarding seeing an erection is "he looks happy", but then the Puritans did start this country and their legacy lives on. As for myself, yes I have had an erection while at the beach and I also had my penis shrink from the cold so take the big and the small, add them together divide by 2 and guess what, I'm just your average guy! No offense meant to anyone.
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MrNatural
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Posted - 08/18/2003 : 11:37:59 AM
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It's not the erection per se that offends, it's the occasional idiot that thinks he can make excuses for his predatory behavior by "blaming it on nature" that offends us every time.
Worse case scenario: You are with your family at a nude beach, and a certain male has positioned his towel ten feet away from your children. This by itself can be innocent. The "wind blows" and he gets an erection. Innocent still? He "forgets" to roll onto his stomach or cover up. Does anyone still think this pervert is innocent? Is there anyone here that still thinks this male is just "enjoying his rights"? I'd be the first to have him arrested and charged with lewdness in the presence of a minor. We'll let the judge sort out whether it makes a difference if he actually fondled himself.
Another scenario: The same male has parked himself next to you and your attractive wife. She is new to nudism and has been anxious about being comfortable around others. Now he's sporting his "perfectly innocent" erection in her plain view. Is he responsible for the effect he has on your wife to kill her interest in nudism? Of course.
You don't go into a restaraunt with surgery hanging off your face, it ruins the other customer's experience of the restaraunt. You can't blame it on the other customers.
You can't expect people to tolerate you if you have an offensive odor, and take no precaution to keep it out of people's noses. It makes no difference that YOU think it smells good, and is totally "natural".
And so we watch for the predator that tries to get away with public lewdness in the guise of just "being natural" at the nude beach. It is the equivalent of "accidently" kicking sand in someone's lunch. It's moronic behavior, no matter how you look at it.
This is why we have laws about indecency, even for nudists. As far as I know, the only places you can sport an erection without offense are on private property, and that only if clearly indicated by the ownership. This does NOT include public areas and beaches.
Yes, "innocent" erections can occur, but it becomes hard to excuse the offender when he conveniently "forgets" to cover in any way. It is being insensitive at best, and predatory in most nudist's view. It can ruin many people's experience of the safe, family nudist lifestyle that we all cherish.
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Edited by - MrNatural on 08/18/2003 12:05:23 PM |
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paint4life
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Posted - 08/18/2003 : 12:46:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MrNatural
It's not the erection per se that offends...
Everything you said was exactly as I see it. Very well said.
2 points on what you said:
1. Tolerance has come to mean "acceptance" and the two are actually mutually exclusive. "America needs more tolerance" is often used by odd groups to say "You need to accept and welcome us." To tolerate is to allow something you do not accept. Real simple: "I don't think that's good, but I will tolerate it."
So, erections are tolerated to a degree at nude beaches. I doubt they are ever appropriate, but are sometimes accepted.
2. A man can be arrested for having an erection in his own house. It just depends on what he's doing in his own house. I saw it on the news not three weeks ago. A man was standing in his kitchen with his side door open facing the neighbor's house where there were two young girls playing. The nude man didn't even have an erection... the perv just stood there showing his privates to the neighbor girls. Their father caught him on videotape (after several instances of it), called the police, and even caught on tape the cops walking up to the door and surprising him while exposing himself. He was arrested for lewd behavior.
And it was right to do arrest him.
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newdnubia
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Posted - 08/19/2003 : 2:47:10 PM
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In a way I agree with you Massai, but I think you have made your point way too philosophical. I believe that erections are natural, and that one of the main premises behind nudism/naturism is that we can be in our natural state. As alluded to in this thread, I don't think people should be offended by an erection, but by the person, who has the erection's, behavior, if it is offensive. Many times a gentle warm breeze off the ocean or just the rejuvanating feeling of clothes free freedom, can give me an erection. This is natural. This should be ok. If, on the other hand I was gwaking at the ladies, then I would find that offensive. Gawking is offensive textile or nude.
Please folks remember that erections are not always sexual. When a ladies nipples become erect (like male erections), it is not always due to sexual issues. (As an aside, these are allowed, yet not viewed as offensive). Different bodies react differently to different stimuli. Relax folks, enjoy the ability to express your self in the nude. Please don't find offense if a penis becomes erect, it's just a penis. Carry on with your activity. If he's a pervert, kick him out, otherwise enjoy your day.
Newdnubia
Freedom, oh freedom!!!
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Cinderela
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 03:46:27 AM
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That's right, not all should be punished for the actions of a few.
I've seen very nice young men have erections and they have been extremely considerate. Covering up, not looking at people, they are obviously politely waiting for it to go away in the pool, while squatting, sitting, or with a towel over it. I think these young men who are respectful of others should have the right to have them. It really depends on the person. If it's a pervert he may very well look like a pervert and act like one too. You can't go accusing every teenage boy or man of being perverted or of thinking evil thoughts cause then we're back to discrimination, racism, and it's the 60's all over again.
To go forward is to tolerate! and to not jump to stupid conclusions! think a little, then act and get the manager to figure it out! It's not a witch hunt for everyone to be kicking people out because of how they look!
If it were like that then I'd be kicking fat people everywhich way because their stomachs are "erect". That's stupid and I would never do that, unless they were purposely showing me their stomachs and rubbing them in my face (pardon the expression).
*chuckle*
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calmnude
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 1:19:49 PM
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right on cinderella!! can they throw narrowminded people out too.
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Massai
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 5:31:07 PM
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MrNatural, thank you for offering your comments on this topic.
Your point of view approaches the issue from a slightly different perspective.
A perspective for which a few more thoughts, for the record, maybe needed.
(In Response)
quote:
Point A: You don't go into a restaurant with surgery hanging off your face"....
You can't expect people to tolerate you if you have an offensive odor, ....
As previously hinted: "Any end-of-process residue from a biological host towards the environment" can be considered a "Hygiene hazard"
--Fluid expulsions (sweat, vomit, spit, urine), gaseous expulsions, semi-solid expulsions, are potential health hazards in a social setting--.
Point A, is an attempt of comparison between "Hygiene Hazards" and "Human Anatomy" (geometry/shape).
An erection, is an alternate geometric shape of an organ. (a comparison as presented above may stand on weak logical ground)
quote:
Point B: Another scenario: The same male has parked himself next to you and your attractive wife...
If a male is determined to appeal/seduce someone else's spouse (and the marital bond is already weak) then the environmental setting is irrelevant. (the issues of fideflty and adultery have been historically present in any society regardless of nudity)
quote:
point c: Worse case scenario: You are with your famUy at a nude beach, and a certain male has positioned his towel ten feet away from your children.
Point C may signify incomplete transition (of the family) to a nude value system.
This is related to cerebral "programming".
A human being has a software component (nurture)and a hardware component (physiology/nature). The same infant (blank state) can be programmed (brought-up) a) as an Israelite, or b) as a Palestinian and in either case it will show similar disposition to the "other" side.
A (non-aroused) male nudist can be placed 1) in a shopping mall in presence of minors, or 2) at a nude beach.
In the first scenario, the social "particles" (bystanders) are programed differently so as to reject and apply punishment to the offender "nudist". In the second scenario the bystanders have an "amended" value system and no rejection occurs.
The above train-of-thought can be extended in the event of an (aroused) nudist at a nude beach; in presence of minors. This scenario will cause a rejection flag among many nudists.
The question is whether such reaction can be substantiated or whether we need to provide further amendments to the nudist value system -- Is it realistic for a parent to dare bring their family to a nude lifestyle, which involves teaching their children acceptance of nature and that it is Ok for strangers to have genitals, *but fall short* in teaching the same children that stranger's genitals naturaly have "atternate" visible states.--
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Edited by - Massai on 04/14/2004 02:58:10 AM |
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NUDKIWI
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 6:13:50 PM
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Massai,i will try to be as brief as possible and please excuse me if i dont seem to have the same exempliary grasp of the english language as you appear to have.
In my opinion there are two very distinct sorts of erections,the "offensive" ones and the "non-offensive".The non-offensive erection is one that occurs through normal bodily function.Sometimes the penis has a mind of its own and for one reason or other,not necessarily sexual, changes size,it happens even with clothes on.When this happens on a beach or at a club they are usually met with little fuss,maybe the occassional knowing grin from other male nudists,most of us know the feeling.As long as the owner of the aforementioned appendage dosent run around the beach yelling "Look i've a boner,i've a boner",most nudists will ignore it.
Now the OFFENSIVE one thats a whole new sausage.This one is owned by an idiot whose sole purpose in visiting a clothes free location is sexual rather than recreational reasons.This is the guy that openly gawks at other nudists frequently touching himself and pointing his "weapon of mass distraction" at every single female on the beach thinking its going to turn them on,when in fact it turns most of them off and they sometimes never return.This is the guy that gives the protesting textiles the ammunition they need to shut down the free beaches and to keep nudism in the forbidden zone.These people are sexual deviants and it doesnt matter if you were at a nude or clothed beach they arent the sort of people you want yourself your wife or your children sharing a beach with.
In short as i have said before its not the erection that has no place in nudism/naturism,it is the sexual deviant.Now the question that begs to be asked is ,"Would worldwide body acceptance bring the sexual deviant to extinction?",we can only live in hope.
Yours Naturally "Kiwi"
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Massai
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 6:17:25 PM
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The concerns that have been presented so far, are fully understood. As a matter of fact, if my arguments were accepted, and nudist attitudes were amended overnight, then it is likely that a transition will *not* be smooth!
Also, it can never be expected to reach utopian levels harmony. Humanity has struggled with the criminality/deviance issue for at least 10,000 years of known history .
It takes effort/energy to maintain a low entropy (social) system and yet we can not reach perfection; in the same way we cannot scientificaly attain zero degrees kelvin (physical laws begin to fall apart at such superconductive state).
Surprisingly, those concerns inadvertently support the previously stated hypothesis:
quote:
-Conventional society harbors the silent realization that unlike other species, Homo-Sapiens is neither mature nor intellectually nor genetically advanced enough to exhibit necessary levels of self-possession and self control in the event that their clothing is removed in a public setting.
I believe it is our duty as a race to advance not only technologically but also intellectually.
As an example, in my mind's eye, the ideal male (in a nude setting) would have levels of self-control rivaling those of the imaginary "Volcans" (the ultra logical/disciplined race from the sci-fi TV series "Star Trek").
Of course an expectation (as afore mentioned) would be unreasonable at this time.
Males (testosterone carriers) are usually the offenders. unfortunately a number of males are invariably caught in a post-simian state (neither fully human nor primate).
Nonetheless, I wish to close this discussion by tossing a proposition on the table for further consideration.
---
To be posted sortly (time permitting)
---
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Edited by - Massai on 04/10/2004 12:42:48 PM |
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NUDKIWI
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 6:37:48 PM
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Massai a friendly suggestion,through the dictionary away and communicate in a way that us simple folk can understand it would be much appreciated
yours naturally Kiwi
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MrNatural
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/21/2003 : 7:05:38 PM
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Fascinating reading.  What an interesting style you have, Massai, although I still can't quite put my finger on where you're going...quote:
Nonetheless, I wish to close this discussion by ...
I doubt you could close this particular discussion with anything less than a court order! 
Massai, there was something there you said that I can readily agree on, that there remains a question of what we tell our children to expect and beware of:quote:
--Is it realistic for a parent to dare bring their family to a nude lifestyle, which involves teaching their children acceptance of nature and that it is Ok for strangers to have genitals, *but fall short* in teaching the same children that stranger's genitals naturally have "alternate" visible states.--
What would you teach your own children? That all erections in public are natural and harmless? Remember, I'm not speaking of a possible utopian future, but pertaining to humanity as it exists in 2003. I think you understand the problem, but what is the solution to predatory behavior?
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Cinderela
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Posted - 08/22/2003 : 03:23:58 AM
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We'll all be in the cold cold ground before we resolve this.
*chuckle*
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irishred
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Posted - 08/23/2003 : 09:05:59 AM
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I agree with Cinderela.
Doesn't look like we'll resolve this issue. Many different, diverse opinions. Guys get erections for many reasons. Commn sense must exercised based on the individual, situation, circumstances, and location.
By the way, Cinderela, I see you have been creative again--a new avatar. Very nice! :)
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Massai
Forum Member
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Posted - 08/23/2003 : 2:19:50 PM
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quote:
I agree with Cinderela
quote:
We'll all be in the cold cold ground before we resolve this
Well then...I will trust your gut feelings. I will refrain from pushing further with "propositions" .
(You are right). This matter should probably be left as is.
It will likely take its own natural course.
(Values of nudism have been changing progressively and continuously since the beginlng of 1900s. Forcing the matter any further may cause adverse reactions)
It doesn't realy matter to me either; since I am not practicing nudism in any form.
Many Thanks to everyone here for contributing your thoughts/comments.
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Edited by - Massai on 04/10/2004 12:45:47 PM |
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A simple question? Arousal and etiquette...
